Read the July 15 meeting.

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Valerie Amezcua

Mayor, you can go ahead.

Valerie Amezcua

Thank you. I hereby reconvene the Santa Ana City Council meeting to order. Madam Clerk, please conduct the roll call.

Jennifer L. Hall

This meeting is taking place with in-person attendance and by teleconference via Zoom. The public may access the meeting via the Santa Ana YouTube channel or the City's website. Please bear with us as the technology may disrupt the flow of the meeting. This is a meeting to conduct the business of the City. There is an opportunity to call for a recess or break or even to clear the meeting room if a meeting becomes too disruptive to properly conduct business. Warnings will be provided prior to any action being taken. We appreciate your cooperation.

Jennifer L. Hall

For everyone's safety, per the Fire Marshal, please do not stand or place objects in the aisles, in front of the dais, along the back wall of the Council Chamber or in front of entrances and exits. During City Council presentations, guests of individuals being recognized are invited to come to the front to take photos. For roll call, Council Member Becerra? Here. Council Member Hernandez? Present. Council Member Lopez? Council Member Penalosa. Here. Council Member Phan. Here. Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez.

Benjamin Vazquez

Present.

Jennifer L. Hall

Mayor Meskwa. Present. Six members present. That is a quorum. Thank you, Madam Clerk. Before we proceed to the Pledge of Allegiance, please make an announcement. For members of the public on Zoom or teleconference to request to speak during public comments on agenda or non-agenda items within the City's jurisdiction, you must dial star 9 from your phone or click the button labeled Raise Hand Now to be in the speaker queue once public comments commence. Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

Thank you. At this time, we're going to do the Pledge of Allegiance. Nabil, would you come up and lead us on the pledge, please?

Please place your right hand on your heart and repeat after me. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

Thank you very much, Nabil. We appreciate it. Words of inspiration will be provided by Pastor Angie Aparacio. Please come to the podium.

Good evening, everyone.

We're here representing Inspira. It's a ministry. It's a nonprofit based here in Santa Ana.

And our mission is to provide physical food for our community, but also to provide prayer for them, for their needs.

Part of our mission is to pray for our governors.

I'm going to read it to you in English. It's 1 Timothy 1-2. It says, I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them intercede on their behalf and give thanks for them. Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peacefully and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. That's what we want to do today.

We're going to be offering words of encouragement for our governors, but also for our community.

The most important thing is for us to be in unity and for us to come into agreement so that we can be a benefit and a blessing for Santa Ana.

Because your word says that if two agree in your name, you will be in our midst.

Also, as Psalm 91 says, that he will send his angels to take care of us, to set us free, of our city, of our schools, and of every neighborhood. In the name of Jesus, we believe that you send your peace to this community. Amen. We also pray according to Psalm 91 where it says that you will give your angels charge over our city and we pray for you to bring that protection for our city and every school and family here. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

Valerie Amezcua

Thank you.

Jennifer L. Hall

Madam Clerk, are there any additions or deletions to the City Council agenda? Yes, Mayor and City Council, there is one. Item number nine, agreements for the ERP software and services has been removed by staff and will be brought forward to you at a later date.

Valerie Amezcua

Thank you. The first presentation is mine. It's a proclamation for proclaiming July as the Parks and Rec month. Come on up, please, everybody. Thank you, everybody.

Hi. Thank you. Hey. How are you doing? Good. Fantastic work. Do you have a pen? Hi. Hey. Hey.

Good job. Good job. Nope.

Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

Everybody in?

Valerie Amezcua

Huck? Good? Everybody looks so nice. Wow. Mr. City Manager, these are all your staff. Look at them. right let's give them a round of applause please

Valerie Amezcua

Hock would be the only one that's gonna start dancing when he's up here I just know it him and Carl Benninger have a special relationship today it is my honor to recognize July of 2025 as Parks and Rec month here in the city of Santa Ana this year's theme build together play together truly captures the spirit community we strive to foster through our parks and recreation programs. Parks and recreation play a critical role in promoting physical, emotional, and mental health. Whether through organized sports, fitness classes, or simply enjoying time outdoors, these activities support wellness for individuals of all ages. And

Valerie Amezcua

I love that because our seniors down to our babies. Beyond health, parks and recreation contribute significantly to our local economy. They attract new businesses, create jobs, boost tourism, and drive community revitalization. Investing in these spaces means investing in the prosperity of Santa Ana. Our parks are more than green spaces. They are places where memories are made and communities come together. Through dynamic programs and events, we engage residents, celebrate diversity, and promote inclusion. Parks foster social connections and ensure everyone has access to a welcoming and safe

Valerie Amezcua

environment. Parks and Recreation also support lifelong learning and human development from youth to seniors. Programs encourage intellectual, physical, emotional, and social growth for all abilities. San Anne is proud to have taken important steps with our Historic Parks Master Plan and our Zoo Master Plan. Yes, I'm waiting for the otters. I can't wait. Reflecting our commitment to preserving and enhancing these treasured community community assets. These plans help us provide facilities and services that celebrate our unique culture, heritage, and community identity. On behalf of the City Council, I proudly declare July

Valerie Amezcua

2025 as Park and Recreation Month here in the City of Santa Ana. Let us celebrate the vital role park and rec professionals play in building a healthier, more connected, and vibrant community. So I personally want to thank each and every one of you for everything that you do, whether it It was the tiles, the zoo, the parks, the movies, the seniors, everything that you guys do, because I've gone to so many different events, and I see you all out there. You work the weekends, and you work the evenings, and the youth commissioners. How many of you are youth commissioners up here? Raise your hand. I want to see how many. That's right.

Valerie Amezcua

Okay. And so I just want to really thank all of you. And so in honor of that, the City of Santa Ana has a proclamation recognizing July 2025 as Parks and Recreation Month, Building Together, I Like Build Together and Play Together. And it is signed by myself and the entire City Council. So thank you all very, very, very much. I really appreciate it. Who would like to speak on your behalf? Should I look at Hawk or who's going to speak?

it anyways hello santa ana um once again just who's up here today is your santa ana parks and recreation your santa anna zoo team your athletics team your seniors team your community engagement team every one of our divisions as well as our parks commissioners are here our youth commissioners here so on behalf of the city council mayor mayor pro temp council members city staff and most importantly you the public of Santa Ana thank you so much for all the love and all support you continue to show us thank you

Valerie Amezcua

all right is there anybody else who wants to speak one of our youth commissioners oh Ethan come and tell us about the zoo I want to hear all about What about the zoo, especially the butterflies?

Well, thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

You have to raise your hand.

I'm also taller. Well, it's always a great honor to come and recognize Parks and Recreation Month. Appreciate being here and lots of great things to come at the different facilities in the future. So thank you. What about the butterflies and the water? Oh, and we have the butterflies at the zoo right now for the spring and summer. And then we also have extended hours through. We do sell beer now. And, yeah. Can we go? Yep, I'm good. Thank you.

Phil Bacerra

Sorry.

Valerie Amezcua

All right.

Oh, no, are you finished?

Alrighty.

Hello, everyone. My name is Emily. How do I put this up? Yeah.

Valerie Amezcua

You need it up as well. I'm sorry. Yeah.

It's a beauty bean talk. All right. All right. Hello, everyone. My name is Emily Parra-Diaz. I am, well, now technically your former War II Youth Commissioner. And I want to start off by saying that it truly has been such an honor serving as this position. But it honestly would have not been possible without the community that brought me to this moment. And I don't just say that as in like just because, yeah, community. No, I say it because there truly has been a lot of people in Santa Ana, who have helped me, and have truly impacted like just simply the trajectory of my life, such as through my education. And I want to give this

message to all the youth here in Santa Ana. I know that with everything going on, such as with ICE and all of that, it makes us afraid, because our future, it feels uncertain. But I want to give this message as also someone who is is a youth that please do not give up in your education. It is your most powerful resource ever because with your learning, that equals power, and most importantly, power creates change. So please, if you're in high school, in college, et cetera, please do not give up. We need you, and I say that as one of your peers.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Benjamin Vazquez

Thank you, Parks and Rec. Thank you, Emily. We'll miss you on Youth Commission. Thank

Thank you.

Thank you.

Benjamin Vazquez

I'm so inspired right now. Thank you. Good evening everyone. Today is my great honor to present this recognition on behalf of the city of Santa Ana to an organization that has fundamentally shaped our city's fight for justice, Chicanos Unidos. Founded in 2006 by a visionary group of local activists, including Suzanne Lovano, hey Suzanne, Veronica Garza Garcia, Gilbert Garcia, Alberto Martinez, and Albert and Frank Castillo. Chicano Sonidos emerged out of the spirit

Benjamin Vazquez

and legacy of the Chicano movement. From the beginning, they chose to stay grassroots. No nonprofit status, no compromise, just real uncompromising community work. They began in the Logan and Lacey neighborhoods, organizing against displacement from the so-called Renaissance plan, whether at Chepas Park or through the Sacred Coalition, they modeled what resistance looks like when it's rooted in community. In 2009, when the OC District Attorney filed a gang injunction in the city of Orange, Chicano Suridos took action. They exposed illegal tactics, partnered with legal allies,

Benjamin Vazquez

and eventually helped secure ruling from the Ninth Circuit Court that protected due process rights. Over 18 years, they became the strongest voice in Orange County against the criminalization of youth. They held forums, supported families, trained young leaders, and stood firm even when few others would.

Benjamin Vazquez

They shaped the next generation of movement leaders like Carolyn Torres and Gabby Hernandez. And now we have a new generation, people who carry the torch of both experience and vision. Their victories didn't just happen in court. They happened in culture, in neighborhoods, in the lives of youth who were defended and believed in. In 2024, thanks to the persistence of organizing, the OCDA agreed to dissolve all 13 gang injunctions in Orange County. It was a monumental victory, nearly two decades in the making.

Benjamin Vazquez

Chicanos Unidos reminds us justice is not granted, it is built from the ground up. Their model blends legal power, cultural defense, and racial love for the barrio. They dare to challenge over policing, question unjust power, and protect the dignity of our communities. Today, we honor not just their voices, but their vision, their courage, and their deep love of the people. On behalf of the City of Santa Ana, thank you. We honor your legacy. Adelante siempre.

This is such an honor to be up here. Often organizations like ours do not get recognized. Our work goes unnoticed, but we value it and we see the tremendous impact that this change has made. You see it with people represented here and onto our left, generations of youth that no longer have to be included in the gang injunction. Thank you, city council.

Thank you City Councilmember Vasquez for recognizing this very important win and for being part of this effort. All these years, you are a true servant to your community. Protecting civil rights and due process should always be front and center for all of us. Allowing people to be arrested based on their race, how they look, where they live, who who they associate with should be illegal. If we face criminal consequences for these policies, we have the fundamental human right to due process, meaning legal proceedings. Right now, we are witnessing the opposite of due process. People are being kidnapped from our streets,

taken into detention centers, held against their will without legal proceedings. This practice didn't start recently. It's been a part of Santa Ana history. In 2006, the Santa Ana City Council members, Santa Ana Police Department, and the Orange County District Attorney decided to place 134 people on the first gang injunction in Orange County, which resulted in permanent life probation and parole. Because gang injunctions are civil matters, defendants were not provided with an attorney. Outdated exaggerated evidence was used in headlines and in court to support these measures.

13 gang injunctions were imposed throughout Orange County that included hundreds of people. All of the gang injunctions were imposed on low-income communities of color. Although OC has multiple documented white gangs, injunctions have never been imposed on them. Being placed on the injunction subjected them to restrictions, which included hanging out with certain people like family members or siblings. It meant you couldn't be out after 10 p.m. to 6 a.m., even if you were 30 years old. You couldn't wear certain colors or logos. If you did, you were sentenced to six months in jail or fined for every violation.

During our fight with the Townsend Injunction, we met a 15-year-old girl who stands with us now who's in her 20s. She was placed on the Townsend Gang Injunction with her 17-year-old brother. They were arrested multiple times for being out in public together. Arrested and taken to juvenile hall. Their mother had to be cautious when leaving the house. And the mother is sitting here in the audience. These were Santa Ana School District students. Gang injunctions were sold as a solution for gang violence. A solution with limited evidence to prove its effectiveness. A solution with no way out.

We met two brothers who had been placed on the injunction when they were teens. They were now adults. One of them went to trade school and had a family. The other one went to a university and was a bicyclist. He went all the way to Europe to compete. But they were on the injunction and still faced the consequences a decade later. We met them at a legal clinic where they asked to be removed and us along with our amazing, courageous, pro bono attorney, Sean Garcia Leys, were able to establish.

were able to establish a path to get removed from an injunction. In 2011, we alongside the ACLU got the US District Court to rule that the OCDA had to give alleged gang members due process rights. They were required to establish criteria to identify alleged gang members. This means that for five years, local law enforcement and the OCDA placed people on injunctions without having clear clear criteria and not offering them due process. We are a diverse organization that welcomes people who are invested in the freedom of others. We have people in our organization who were on gang injunctions and whose family were

impacted by gang injunctions. We were able to mobilize families, community members, dozens of pro bono attorneys, paralegals, youth activists. Some of these leaders sit in the audience today. day. The most courageous are the people who challenged the inclusion on the gang injunction. The most courageous that I know and why I committed 14 years of my life was to the 15 year old that is now in her 20s and now works with Atreus youth and is so committed to changing generations. We didn't have support from elected in Santa Ana. They either supported the gang injunction or didn't

want to take a stance because they didn't want to look soft on crime. It was more important to look good politically than to look out for residents. We need leaders to have moral foresight around issues regardless of how it impacts their political careers. You are in these positions to help and protect people and that has to come before your political careers. When you stand up for people you don't deem valuable, when you don't stand up for people you don't deem valuable, you tell the government that it is allowable and can expand. The denial of process for anybody jeopardizes the denial of process for everybody.

When you allow people to be othered in such a way, it never stays with just that group. The City of Santa Ana should reject any future policies that deny residents due process.

So many people have passed during this process. We had mothers pass. We've had youth pass. we've had some of our members pass and we are we will continue to be stay committed to community with these policies or other policies because we our commitment well live any electeds or administration thank you we love you Santana

Thank you.

We Chicanos Unidos as an activist organization have been around for over 18 years, specifically in our city of Santa Ana and all of our Orange County and all of Orange County. Some of us started many years ago as Chicano Moratorium of Orange County. We talked about some of many campaigns that we are involved with along with other organizations in the community. I will talk about this organization or our committees. Our education committee has pushed to bring ethics studies on our school district to understand who you are and how and why we got here.

To know your heroes who look just like you and to embrace your culture and mostly to to love yourself for who you are.

The other committee that we have is called, it's our gentrification committee. We, along with other organizations and associates and community members, fought over, starting 17 years ago, against the city of Santa Ana, wanting to build luxury condos so high that the Logan and Lacey area would never see the sun.

Eight years ago, we joined DUSA, Tennis United Santana, to stop the high rise of rent in our city. We lived and lived in this horrible condition of our overcrowding apartments and motorhomes in order to pay the rent.

All this was done to replace us and remove us from here.

One of our Justice Committee campaigns was to remove all gang injunctions, not only in Santa Ana, but everywhere. We fought the police and the district attorney in the court system. We beat them in every level. they appealed from Superior Court, Federal, and Ninth District Court of Appeals on the issue of due process, which is very relevant today of watching migrants being kidnapped without due process.

But because of the color of their skin, Vasquez v. Rukakis, a case along with the ACLU, set precedence throughout California and other states. Gang injunctions basically remove your right of free movement outside your home and at any age, you were restricted of leaving your home after 10 p.m. It didn't matter your age. You could not get together with others and many other restrictions. All this because of the color of

your skin, how you dress, and where you live. One of our last committees I will mention is where the elected politicians is doing harm to our community over power and money. We work to replace them though we have helped elect very few that have gone to the dark side. Today we will see them gut the police oversight commission,

making the commission useless. We've seen them do nothing. When our community is under attack, we are at a time in history where we will be asked, what did you do to protect protect our Santa Ana residents from abuse by the ICE, military, and police. What will your answer be? I'm asking, join an organization or start one. Nothing is ever given.

Someone or some group has fought for us, just like you all are doing tonight.

I am on behalf of Chicanos Unidos, I want to thank you for this.

Afuera con el Mayor Latina Trump.

And Chicana and Chicano power and power to the people.

Hasta la victoria siempre. Thank you.

Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

So the next presentation is Councilman Becerra. I'm sure Councilmember Becerra will not let this become a political action and thank you so much Councilman Becerra for your professionalism and this will be recognizing Orange County Fire Authority's best and bravest for outstanding contributions to the community. Can we have the fire department come up please? Thank you. Thank you.

Phil Bacerra

Well I hope everybody can agree that when it comes to our life-saving personnel, it's not a political issue, right? There we go, there we go.

Phil Bacerra

All right, so good evening everyone. So tonight we are recognizing the Orange County Fire Authority firefighters and personnel who were recently honored at OCFA's Best and Bravest award ceremony. I am proud of the courage, compassion, and commitment that the OCFA personnel have, especially those who serve here in Santa Ana. The Best and Bravest celebrate those who raise the bar just a bit higher this year. The Best and Bravest recognize not only their exceptional skills, but also their unwavering courage and selflessness in the face of danger. Day in and day out, these firefighters put their lives

Phil Bacerra

on the line to protect our community, often prioritizing the safety of others above their own. Their heroic efforts extend beyond the call of duty, reflecting a deep commitment to the well-being and safety of the people here in Santa Ana. We offer our heartfelt gratitude to these firefighters for their exemplary service and dedication. These certificates of recognition on behalf of the Santa Ana City Council are another opportunity for us to reaffirm our appreciation of their professionalism, bravery, and unwavering integrity. So if you would please join me in recognizing our distinguished honorees

Phil Bacerra

who truly embody the spirit of bravery and selflessness. So we have Battalion Chief Chris Sotra. Chris?

Phil Bacerra

Next up we have our Santiago fundraising team. They were the Unsung Hero winner this year.

Come on up.

Phil Bacerra

And this is Nicholas Nieheiser, who was a part of that team, right? Yes, sir. All right, awesome. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Awesome.

Phil Bacerra

Let's give these guys one more round of applause.

applause

Thank you.

Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

All right, Councilmember Phan, let's do it. we are honoring Nabil Saban recognition of his retirement.

Valerie Amezcua

25 years.

Thai Viet Phan

Hey guys, there's going to be a long one, so just get ready. I'm so excited. He really didn't want us to recognize him, but I was like, no, yeah, we're doing this. I don't care what you want because you're leaving anyway.

Thai Viet Phan

What? He's abandoning me. Hi, everyone. My name is Tyviat Phan. I represent Ward 1. I have a soft spot in my heart for public works. They know that. I'm sorry Parks and Rec, but you know, I mean he's getting me money for Euclid. So all right, well what are we doing here? Well we're, I thought we were just going to do a certificate of recognition, but it's a whole proclamation recognizing Director Nabil Saba, Director of Public Works for his incredible 25 years of service to the City of Santa Ana.

Thai Viet Phan

All right, so I'm first going to read some of the chat GPT speaking points.

Thai Viet Phan

So Nabil started his career in the city of Santa Ana approximately 25 years ago, and that was only, that's apparently 1999. Okay, but that was only five years ago in my book, so I'm not ready to retire yet. And so what has he been doing? Well, he's the executive director of Public Works Agency, but that's not where he started. He started in water, right? Yeah, that's right, water department.

Thai Viet Phan

They have to cheer because they're over at the yard. They never get to be here. But he worked his way up. He made his way here. And, you know, now I guess he's trying to leave us. But that's okay because in the time that he's been here in the city of Santa Ana, what has he done? So I'm going to read this. Secured over $50 million in active transportation grants to create a more connected and walkable Santa Ana. That's right. Executing a $70 million citywide solid waste services contract that modernized our waste management systems.

Thai Viet Phan

Facilitating the transfer of over $23 million in sewer assets from the Orange County Sanitation District, bringing critical infrastructure under local control. role, and leading the modernization of the city's municipal fleet to promote sustainability and environmental responsibility. He's also done stuff like champion the parks master plan, new parks, yay, Santa Anita.

Thai Viet Phan

And working with Parks and Rec, of course, because Public Works works with all the departments, but upgraded play fields, and of course, he also helped deliver revived Santa Ana capital improvements. And, you know, he did a lot of really great stuff, yeah.

Thai Viet Phan

But I guess I wanted to share some personal things about Nabil because I like to think that he and I had a special relationship. Because what you might not know about Director Saba is that he too is an immigrant. Yes. So we connected a lot about this. Director Saba is an immigrant who came here when he was 17 from Gaza. He's a Palestinian from Gaza. And coming to America as a young, wide-eyed, I guess, teenager, he ended up here in Santa Ana, like me. And so, I mean, he just wants to be me, really. But director Sava landed in Santa Ana, lived with his uncle who,

surprise, owned a liquor store. Kind of stereotype, right? I mean, he is an engineer too, okay guys?

Thai Viet Phan

and he went to Santa Ana College right here in the city of Santa Ana went to Santa Ana College and although he did work for the state for 10 years we won't mention that it's not important he came here to the city of Santa Ana and has been here ever since he worked his way up and I know that Nabil cares deeply for the city of Santa Ana so a couple things first he did not know this and actually I don't think any of the staff knew at about 1 30 this morning I kind kind of freaked out about this presentation and creepily found his children on the internet.

Thai Viet Phan

And I'd like to mention that they are wonderful, wonderful people. First, I need to thank his wife, Mervet. Mervet. His children, Dina, who's a doctor, rude. Joseph, who's also a doctor, also rude. And Mark, who's an engineering student, civil engineer. You got one of them. All right. And so I asked, I wasn't able to get a hold of Dina, I think because she's like doctoring and really important. But I did talk to Joseph on the internet. And I asked him to share some stories about his dad relating to Santa Ana.

Yeah, I know, right?

Thai Viet Phan

That's right. I know how to create. And so, yeah. So Joseph went to UCLA. Hey, that's my alma mater. Sorry, Phil. and he said that he and his friends would carpool from UCLA back down to Orange County, and they would get dropped off at South Coast Plaza. And so his dad, Nabil, obviously, would pick them up at South Coast Plaza. But instead of taking the freeway like any normal person, back to wherever they live all fancy, like Placentia, really far, we don't talk about North County, he would take Bristol. I think he was trying to visit David.

Thai Viet Phan

He took Bristol all the way up through Santa Ana because he's weird, but also because he wanted to check in on the streets. This guy was dedicated. And he wanted to see if he could call anything in.

Thai Viet Phan

According to Joseph, I can neither confirm nor deny if this is true, that one night, Nabil saw a fire hydrant overflowing and he called it in. He didn't really care about his spending time with his son, but it was really important to check on public works. So Joseph said that's how he knew that his dad really cared for the city. And apparently, and I'd like to know where this is, they also stopped by a food truck that had the best burrito Joseph had ever had. I hope it had a permit, Nabil. Thank you.

Thai Viet Phan

Nabil said it did. Did he actually check? I do not know, but it's not your job. That was his job to confirm. firm. And then I also got a hold of Mark, the youngest of the three. I think he's at Cal State Fullerton? Yes. Okay. All the Cal State Fullertons, these titans. There's so many of them everywhere. I did officiate a wedding for two Cal State Fullerton students, so all right, they're fine. And so I asked him to share a couple stories. One of his stories was during the middle of peak peak pandemic, 2020, last year, right? Couldn't have been that long ago. Around Mother's Day.

Thai Viet Phan

And it was like 3 or 4 a.m. And Mark, at this time, well, this was, I guess, five years ago, he was a child. 12. And he was awake at 3 or 4 a.m. And he really shouldn't have. Come on, Nabil, be a better father. And then he hears Nabil walking down the hallway, all right? And according to Mark, he was an absolute terror. See, I told you, be a better father. And Mark, being 12, turned off the lights but didn't turn off the TV because he was 12. Nabil walks over, and he sees a TV light because it's 3 or 4 in the morning. Lights are on.

Thai Viet Phan

And Nabil starts grinning cheek to cheek. That's not how you discipline a 12-year-old. Because he realized, you know, Mark was awake. And then Nabil says, well, they need me at work right now. And he went to work. And so Mark said that he believed that that truly encapsulates how Nabil felt working for Santa Ana. And apparently he didn't even get mad at his 12-year-old son for being up at 12 of 3 or 4 in the morning. Don't let Mervet be the bad guy all the time. But you know what's even better than chastising or not chastising your 12 year old at 3 or

Thai Viet Phan

4 in the morning is having your youngest son Mark be present here in Chambers to share some stories about you and your dedication to the city of Santa Ana.

Thai Viet Phan

So Mark, please come on down.

Hi.

Thai Viet Phan

And I'd like Mark to share one of the stories that we did discuss prior to this in a creepy Facebook Messenger chat. So why don't you share that story about Nabil's dedication to the city of Santa Ana? Oh yeah.

Okay, make it clean.

Thai Viet Phan

Okay.

So first things first, I do want to set the record clean. I was 15 in the other story, not 12.

Thai Viet Phan

You should remember your children's birthday. Yeah.

Come on, come on. But the other story is, honestly, growing up, so he was water guy. In the public works, he was water. So I guess at one point something had to do with the installation of lights on the water tower so there are lights like going up on it all the time at night and at like he would come home from work probably like 5, 6 p.m. and he would be like guys come on let's get in the car. Like okay cool we're gonna go for a drive this is gonna be great and the first place he would take us is down I'm really bad at my freeways I think it's the 5. take us down the five and he'd just be like, look the lights are on at the

water tower and he would just drive us around like two, three times and be like wow like look at the lights or like every time he would post on Facebook it was about the lights, his background on Facebook was the light, he loved these lights on that water tower with all his heart and honestly I think that passion is kind of what drove me to be an engineer hoping I could be as passionate about something as he was about those lights. Like he loved those lights so much. Thank you.

Thai Viet Phan

And to confirm Nabil's passion for these lights, I asked Joseph and Mark to share a couple of stories. Joseph's second story was about the freaking lights.

Thai Viet Phan

And so before I give you this wonderful proclamation, there's a couple other things because, you know, you're leaving us forever. I'd like to share something that I learned recently here you go here you can hold this that I learned recently that director Saba is is very supportive of his employees right like you know he's really encouraging he wants to make sure that the young interns the newbies and whatnot they can really get their stuff together you know do their job and so I I discovered a wonderful thing that he would tell people. He's like, you got this. You got this.

Thai Viet Phan

OK, let me go ahead and show you what it looks like.

Oh, you got this. What is it? It's Eddie's office.

Jennifer L. Hall

This is in someone's office?

Thai Viet Phan

Now this is going in my office. Every time I feel like quitting, Director Sava says, you got this.

Or I can give it to Mark. Here you go.

Thai Viet Phan

And then finally, before we finish, I would like to invite up our deputy public directors Rudy, Cesar, and Mike to help me out.

Thai Viet Phan

So typically we like to present our retirees with some wonderful little gifts before they go and well I'd leave it up to the deputy directors to share

what this is so hello today we get to honor our fearless leader here in the bill we're sorry to see him go but on behalf of the Santa Ana Public Works team we get the special Public Works present which he'll open

Thai Viet Phan

be surprised

Thai Viet Phan

And with that, the city of Santa Ana and I proudly share this proclamation. Thank you, Director Nabil Sabah, for your incredible dedication and your 25 years here at the City of Santa Ana. Thank you.

Thai Viet Phan

I mean, y'all know I'm like a politician, so I keep talking, but I guess he should say something too.

Thank you everyone.

Thank you Council Member Phan, thank you Mayor, Council Members, EMT staff, really, and Hawk. Thank you.

Thank you for the 25 years of wonderful time with the City of Santa Ana. As Council Member Phan mentioned, I started as a assistant engineer with the water department and all throughout the 25 years I've had the pressure to work with a outstanding group of employees dedicated to the city I can tell you city manager that Public Works Agency will move mountains for you and I'm proud to be part of that team and thank you very much

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Valerie Amezcua

So I just want to remind the council please that we need to maintain four of us up here at all times.

Sonia R. Carvalho

Yes, we do have a four.

Valerie Amezcua

Madam City Attorney, do you have anything to report out of closed session?

Sonia R. Carvalho

Mayor, Council Members, members of the public, I do have reportable action for you this evening from our closed session.

Valerie Amezcua

You want to hold on one second so we can hear you?

Sonia R. Carvalho

other. All right I think we're good. Okay Mayor, Council Members and Members of the public I do have reportable action for you this evening on three items. In the case of Santa Ana versus Orange County Association for Mental Health MHA the The City Council voted 4-0 with Council Members Hernandez, Lopez, and Penalosa absent to enter into an agreement to resolve the lawsuit without any cost to the City.

Sonia R. Carvalho

In the second case, the case of Arch Insurance Company v. City of Santa Ana, the City Council voted 4-0 with Council Members Hernandez, Lopez, and Penalosa absent to settle the case for $340,000. And then finally, with respect to the item of potential initiation of litigation, by unanimous vote of 6-0 with Councilmember Lopez absent, the Mayor and City Council voted to join the City of Los Angeles, the County of Los Angeles, and nine other cities who intervened on behalf of their residents in the Pedro Vazquez Perdomo lawsuit, where this past Friday,

Sonia R. Carvalho

a federal judge issued two temporary restraining orders prohibiting the federal government, including the Department of Homeland Security from continuing unlawful immigration enforcement actions. We'll be filing that motion for intervention

Valerie Amezcua

tomorrow. Thank you Madam City Attorney. At this time this is the time of the meeting for the City Council to receive comments from the public. Am I off bounds here? We want to I want to do housing so that we're good. You guys are good with me doing housing first? All right Madam Clerk let's go to the housing

Valerie Amezcua

please okay we are recessing the City Council meeting and convening to the Housing Authority meeting. I hereby call the Housing Authority meeting to order. Madam Secretary, please conduct the roll call.

Jennifer L. Hall

Thank you, Mayor. Authority Member Becerra? Here. Authority Member Hernandez? Here. Authority Member Lopez?

Here.

Jennifer L. Hall

Authority Member Penalosa? Here. Authority Member Pham? Here. Vice Chair Vazquez?

Here.

Jennifer L. Hall

Chair Meskwas? Here. Quorum members present? That is a quorum.

Valerie Amezcua

Madam Secretary, do we have any speakers for these items within the Housing Authority agenda?

Jennifer L. Hall

Within the Housing Authority agenda, no, we have no speakers and we did not receive any emails related to Housing Authority. Thank you. Does any authority member wish

Valerie Amezcua

to make a motion and second to announce please announce your name and make a motion? Please cast your vote at this time. Any comments? I'll make a motion.

Valerie Amezcua

Second. Can you do a roll call please, Madam Clerk? Yes.

Jennifer L. Hall

This is a motion by Chairperson Nmeskwa seconded by Vice Chair Vasquez to approve Housing Authority Consent Calendar Items 1 through 4. Authority Member Becerra?

Phil Bacerra

Yes.

Jennifer L. Hall

Authority Member Penalosa?

Phil Bacerra

Yes.

Jennifer L. Hall

Vice Chair Vasquez?

Phil Bacerra

Yes.

Jennifer L. Hall

Chair Nmeskwa? Yes. So it is four ayes, no nays. Motion carries.

Jennifer L. Hall

And Mayor, that concludes the Consent Calendar. If you'd like to attend to the Business Calendar of the Housing Authority? Yes.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Item Number 5 is a proposed to comply with the Housing Opportunity through Modernization Act. Mr. City Manager, do you have a presentation? Does the Council need one? Seeing a request for no presentation. Okay. Are there any questions or comments by authority members?

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Seeing none, can I get a motion and a second, please? I'll make a motion.

Phil BacerraItem 5

Second.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Roll call, please.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Motion by Chairperson Nemesio. seconded by authority member Becerra to approve an update to the Housing Choice Voucher Administrative Plan to comply with the Housing Opportunity through Modernization Act. Authority member Becerra? Yes. Authority member Penalosa? Yes. Vice Chair Vazquez? Yes. Chair Homesqua? Yes. So it is four ayes, no nays. Motion carries.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Thank you. The Housing Authority meeting is adjourned and we reconvene to the City Council meeting. At this time, Madam Clerk, if we, this is the time for the City Clerk Council to receive, excuse me, receive comments from the public on agenda non-agenda items madam city clerk please explain the public comment procedures and call

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

the first speakers thank you mayor pursuant to resolution number 2025-004 speakers are requested to address the city council directly and to refrain from profane language racial epitaphs and libelous or slanderous statements that disturb the decorum of the meeting pursuant to the brown act the city council may not enter into discussion at this time speakers will have three minutes for their comments. Before calling speakers, I'll report the summary of emails provided as of today at 2 p.m. We received a total of 20 e-comments. Five of those were on non-agenda related topics and 15 were related to item number 15.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

We will now hear from members of the public. Those comments were distributed to the City Council and posted online for public review. We will now hear from members of the public that are physically present in the Council Chamber followed by those on the conference call or Zoom to provide their comments on agenda or non-agenda items only. Please state your name and the ward or neighborhood that you reside in for the record. I'll call names three at a time from the speaker cards. If you could please line up in the center aisle behind the podium when you hear your name.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

First three speakers, Quinn Tran, Jadalyn Vardeen, Jadal A.V.

Good evening, Mayor and Council Members. My name is Quinn and I'm a resident of Ward 5. Hi, Jonathan. I'm here to strongly oppose the proposed amendments to the Police Oversight Ordinance. These changes don't strengthen oversight. In fact, they dismantle it. Stripping independence and limiting authority signals that transparency is not a priority. Letting the police choose which cases are reviewed defeats the purpose of a civilian oversight. A commission without power is an oversight, it's merely theater and optics.

This is an affront to years of grassroots organizing that created this commission only to see it gutted before it even truly begins any real work. Public trust is on the line. I urge you to reject these changes and uphold a truly independent and effective commission. Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor and city council members. My name is Jayden Lynn Verdeen and I appreciate this opportunity to speak today about the police oversight commission. As a young person in Santa Ana, I want to say that many youth in our city are watching what's happening. We are looking for leadership, leadership that listens and cares about our future and stands up for what's right. Unfortunately, many of us feel that leadership has been lacking. Decisions are being made that affect our daily lives, but it also feels like our voices of the youth and the most impacted communities are not being taken seriously.

We need the city council to be bold. Oversight and taking accountability are not signs of weakness, they're signs of real leadership. A strong, independent police oversight commission with real power can start to rebuild trust that's been lost. Please show the youth of Santa Ana that you're willing to be a leader with courage and integrity. We are paying attention and we are listening. Thank you for your time.

Good evening, Mayor and City Council members. My name is Jada Leverdeen and I'm a resident of Santa Ana. I'm here today to talk about the proposed change to our Police Oversight Commission. Growing up here, I've seen firsthand how officers interact with our community over the years. We waited a long time for this commission, hoping it would bring real transparency and build trust. It was supposed to be a community group, making sure police conduct was fair and right. But now it feels like they're trying to water down what the commission can actually do.

If they can't investigate things independently and have to wait for police department to check themselves, that's not real oversight. It's like letting someone grade their own homework. It's just not fair. We need a commission with the real power to investigate problems, find out what happened, and suggest ways to make things better without being controlled by the police department itself. That's how we build trust and ensure everyone is treated fairly. Please don't let these changes weaken our police oversight commission. Let's make it stronger so it can truly serve our community and ensure accountability for for everyone.

Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

The next three speakers, Amalia Mejia, Jaime Fernandez, Joe S.

Hello, Mayor and City Council members. My name is Jaime Fernandez. I lived in Santa Ana for a very long time. As you can see, I work in the dental industry. I'm disgusted with the fact that a lot of dental patients do not get anything for free. At Community Care Dental Clinic, we've been providing for a long time free dental services, dental exams to the underprivileged, regardless of their immigration status. status. We have doctors who are UCLA professors. We have flexible hours. All of our staff is

100% bilingual. We help all of our patients apply for Medi-Cal and Denti-Cal. And we're just here to let you know that we're here to help out the community. Thank you very much.

Good evening, Council, Mayor and Council members. My name is Amalia Mejia. I am a resident of Ward 4 on the Police Oversight Commission. I'm here regarding item 15, the amendments to the ordinance. It is my understanding that this is the first reading and that there will be an opportunity for discussion in future edits and amendments. During your discussion and presentation, I would like to hear what specifically aligns with state law that is necessary to change. In other words, of the amendments of which are needed to be and according to which bill or penal code.

As of now, the amendments generally reference penal code 832.5, 832.7, 832.8 and evidence code sections 1040-1043, but fail to detail which parts align with what section. SB 1421, authored by Senator Skinner, made amendments to the aforementioned codes. The bill in section one clearly states the public has a right to know all about serious police misconduct as well as about officer involved shootings and other uses of force.

Concealing crucial public safety matters such as officer violations of civil rights or inquiries into deadly use of force incidents undercuts the public faith in the legitimacy of law enforcement. We, as a public, have the right to understand your logic and rationale to the amendments, specifically the amendment changes to the ordinance in the following sections. Section 2-665B, 3 and 4, on the use of force in officer-involved shootings, you have changed it for the Commission to review only after internal affairs. However, Penal Code 832.7 A and B state otherwise.

otherwise. Section A begins as except as provided in subdivision B, then section B states section 7932.600 of the government code or any other law, the following peace officer or custodial officer personnel records and records maintained by a state or local agency shall not be confidential and shall be made available for public inspection pursuant to the California public record that's. Nowhere does it state that we can only investigate after internal affairs has been reviewed. That seems to be your own interpretation on how to move forward with the ordinance not to be in compliance with state law.

In fact, the only section in which requires sustained findings by law enforcement agency is on the topic of sexual assault. Secondly, I find the changes to the training quite problematic, especially to attend all the academic training. I think that similar to concepts to thinking like a lawyer, having such training can fundamentally change the independence of the oversight, specifically to changing the culture of think like a cop. We already have conservative folks in the commission, there's no question about that. Having these type of trainings will only further justify the reasoning of wrongful actions

rather to being independent and non-biased. Last one issue in the commission is the lack of transparency on our agenda items. We have attempted to address this issue in the bylaws, however, I know I'm running out of time. Amalia, your time is up.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Joe S. followed by David Pulido and Vanessa Cerda.

Good evening, City Council. My name is Joe Saladino and I'm a resident of Santa Ana Ward 5. And I'm here to speak in strong opposition of item 15. At a time when mistrust in public institutions is at an all-time high, a vote to amend the police oversight commission from its original intent as an independent community-led investigative committee is the wrong move and can only engender further divisions we do not need ceremonial half measures or goodwill gestures but true accountability rooted in transparency and respect transparency that was fought for was fought hard for and earned by community members

in 2022 is now under threat here today aligning this commission with state law keeps us from from addressing Santa Ana's unique needs, which is the last month and a half of ice abductions in the city of Shone is what this moment calls for. Residents are scared. The status quo isn't going to be enough. You have an opportunity today to begin to rebuild that trust, lead the way, and show our community and the world at large that Santa Ana won't shy away from those who seek to intimidate us. Please don't waste it and oppose item 15. Thank you.

Okay. My name is David Polito. I'm a resident of Ward 5 and member of CSO's Police Accountability Committee. We're here to speak on item 15 and demand that city council not pass the proposed amendments to weaken the Police Oversight Commission. This commission was established after years of organizing by groups like G-SPAA, the ACLU, Chicanos Unidos, Underground Grit, I learned today, and many more. more. Crucially, it was made possible by the mass movement of the people when millions took to the streets in 2020 against racist police violence in the George Floyd rebellion. And because the

racist structure of our society remains in place, we continue to see racist killings today, as you all know. The very idea of weakening this commission in any form should be out of the question. Going backwards is unacceptable when our police department brutalizes minors. On June 9th, police officers chased down and arrested 15-year-old Mario Diaz. Mario surrendered to police, but they beat him up anyway, breaking his ribs, collapsing a lung, and fracturing his eye socket. And I learned he also will require surgery in his cheek. Shame. According to his mother, the last thing Mario saw before falling unconscious was Luis Casillas.

Casillas, the same officer who killed unarmed Noe Rodriguez on December 1st, 2024, by firing 18 bullets at an unarmed man. The same officer who shot Henry Gonzalez Jr. just one month later despite the fact that his mother said Henry wanted to kill himself. All these incidents should be independently investigated by a fully powered commission. The commission should retain the power to make disciplinary recommendations to the police chief and the city manager. And one day we should be expanding its power, not weakening it, to include final say over discipline.

We should decide what happens to killer cops. Any obstacles to our basic democratic rights and our demands should be swept aside. Going backwards is unacceptable when the Trump administration plans to unleash police on oppressed peoples and social movements. His executive order to unleash law enforcement threatens to sue, pardon me, threatens to use federal resources to aggressively police communities against all crimes, which in Santa Ana are mainly low-level offenses and crimes of economic desperation.

It threatens to strengthen and expand legal protections for cops who already enjoy extra legal protections under the Peace Officer Bill of Rights, as we've seen in this whole discussion. Now is the time for city council to stand on the right side of history and strengthen police oversight. So today we will learn where you stand. Note to these amendments, Justice for Noe Rodriguez, Fire Killer Cops Luis Casillas, and Issa Kibara.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

The next three speakers, Vanessa Cerda, Kayla Asato, Missouri Ramos.

Hello, my name is Kayla Satu, former resident of ward three and former employee in ward five. I just have to say that it is extremely alarming that right after we were able to get a head of the oversight commission to call the meetings to order to be able to investigate anything the first instinct is to start to weaken it i am deeply disappointed that the whole idea behind all

of this is to require commissioners to do ride-alongs and most importantly to only allow things through after the police have decided whether or not to investigate it. That is not oversight. That is the Trump administration saying we will hold ourselves accountable. The Santa Ana is better than that and we need to lead by example. We are trying to do our best for our immigrant communities. We

gang injunctions and I know that we need to do better for our residents by actually allowing a police oversight commission an independent police oversight commission and to actually take action for all of these issues we can't just give things over to the police and say oh you police yourselves that doesn't work that has never worked anywhere in the country and we need to to do better, I expect better of the city, thank you.

Good evening, Mayor and Council. My name is Isuri Ramos. I am the Executive Director at CHISPA and here to provide public comment on item 15, the proposed amendments to the police oversight ordinance. CHISPA is one of the key organizations that helped make this ordinance and the subsequent Police Oversight Commission a reality, and we have real concerns over the impact that proposed amendments would have if adopted. We work closely with the city attorney and council to ensure every power was complying with state law and the Peace Officer Bill of Rights. If adopted as proposed, these amendments

will gut critical oversight capabilities and take any true oversight power away from the commission. These proposed amendments go against the spirit of the ordinance and against the community's demand for a strong independent investigatory commission we can't roll back these hard-won policies i will briefly speak to five components of the ordinance that must remain intact to ensure it is not reduced to a purely symbolic policy i urge each of you to please consider the following recommendations one retain independent investigative authority do not eliminate the commission's ability to conduct

independent investigations if capacity is a concern we recommend a case triage system or or prioritization framework that gives priority to the most serious misconduct and use of force cases. Two, do not reduce the commission to a body that reviews complaints after internal affairs investigations. The commission must be able to consider all complaints, independent of the outcome of SAPD internal affairs investigations. Three, retain pathways for commission recommendations to go directly to the city council. This will promote public trust and greater transparency.

transparency. Four, maintain authority to make disciplinary recommendations. There is no reason to remove the commission's ability to make recommendations in cases of substantiated misconduct. Five, require public transparency in annual reports. Annual reports must include data on all complaints received, their outcomes, and disciplinary recommendations issued by the commission, as well as the city manager or police chief's response to the commission. I implore you to do the right thing tonight. Stand by your constituents that fought for true police oversight for decades.

Preserve the spirit of the police oversight ordinance and reject any amendments to remove its power. Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Next three speakers, Emma Gottfried, Matthew Compton, Vincent. Vincent.

I'M A RESIDENT OF AWARD 4 AND I'M HERE AS A MEMBER OF CSO POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY COMMITTEE. WE'RE HERE TO DEMAND THAT THE CITY COUNCIL DOES NOT PASS THE ORDINANCE FOR AMENDING THE POWERS OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION. THIS COMMISSION WAS CREATED TO PROMOTE TRANSPARENCY BETWEEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND OUR COMMUNITY. AND THIS IS A COMPLETE BETRAYAL OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT transparency, a complete betrayal of trust.

And I want to speak a little bit on the role of the Oversight Director themselves. This Oversight Director was supposed to be authorized by the City Council to subpoena witnesses, compel the production of evidence, and conduct independent investigations. This was supposed to be an independent commission, but this this ordinance wants to change all of that, even down to the name. It's no longer, you are proposing to change the name from Independent Oversight Director to Police Oversight Director. It's very transparent what you all are trying to do.

Now this director really is only able to submit results of internal affairs investigations as their final part of this process, and that is not independent oversight in the slightest.

So with these changes, there'll no longer be an independent body, just another PR tool for the police department.

So we urge you as strongly as possible to not make these changes, to rethink these changes, to change these changes, because we as a community will not stand for these changes. I'm going to give you a few more questions.

Justice for Noe Rodriguez, fire Luis Casillas and Isaac Ybarra, and do not make these changes. Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Matthew Compton, Vincent, Erica Armentha.

Okay. Good evening. My name is Matt. I'm here with CSOOC. I'm here to raise my concerns for item 15. This new ordinance will take away substantial power away from the Police Oversight Commission. The Commission will only be able to investigate police misconduct after SAPD conducts their own investigation and after supporting evidence is found. This is troubling considering SAPD has a very long history of violence. For For example, I will be quoting one of SAPD officers during a traffic stop. Officer Nicholas Cavendish said, and I quote, if I ever catch you back in fucking Santa Ana,

this body cam is going to go in my car, and I'm going to fucking bash your brains in. Do you understand?

Shame.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

So if you could just say the F word instead of using the actual word, please. I'm quoting one of the officers. I understand, sir.

Okay, I am allowed to say it.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

We actually had a complaint from community members that they're watching their children. So if you could just say F word, I would appreciate it. Thank you. Okay.

Under what circumstances does a traffic stop require such language? Under what circumstances is it okay for a police officer to threaten someone's life? How can any of you on the department and the three of you on this council who support them sleep with yourself? You all should be ashamed. Officer Nicholas's comments are just one example of many violent incidents involving Santa Ana PD. Noe Rodriguez was killed on December 1, 2024. Officers Luis Casillas and Isaac Ibarra shot Noe 29 times. Noe was unarmed and wasn't a threat to anyone.

Luis Casillas and Isaac Ibarra then lied and said Noe was brandishing a shotgun at them. This is untrue as Noe was standing still the entire time. This ordinance being proposed is going to stop the commission's power to hold officers like Nicholas, like Louise, like Isaac accountable for their actions. This is the same department that's supposed to protect our community. The same department that is threatening and taking people's lives. I urge all of you to vote no on item 15 and justice for Noe Rodriguez.

My name is Vincent and I'm a lifelong resident of Santa Ana and I live in Ward 3. I'm here as a member of CSO's police accountability community and we are here to demand that the city council not pass the ordinance for amending the powers of the police oversight commission. Commission. The new ordinance would strip the Commission and oversight director of the power to independently investigate submitted issues. Instead, they would only review investigations by SAPD's Department of Internal Affairs after they have been completed. Additionally, the Commission cannot review certain complaints unless their findings have been sustained

by the Department of Internal Affairs. These complaints include allegations of prejudice, discrimination, sexual assault, unlawful arrest, or unlawful search, unreasonable or excessive force, in custody deaths, and unlawful conduct that interferes with the First Amendment assemblies. These changes would destroy the Oversights Commission to independently investigate cases of police misconduct. All investigative authority would be in the hands of the police because they get to decide what findings are sustained. If the police could be trusted to investigate themselves, we wouldn't have created this commission in the first place.

The proposed amendments revoked the independent oversight director's authority to investigate complaints, including compelling the production of evidence and the ability to subpoena witnesses. Instead, they will only be allowed to review SAPD internal affairs investigations, and only if they are sustained findings. Nothing in the state laws that police funded councils members claim we are violating require this change. Section one part D of this amendment literally states that the changes were produced in collaboration with the police department, who we know from experience cannot be trusted to investigate themselves.

These changes are being considered in an election environment where the police union has become one of the city's largest spenders on campaigns. The benefactor of the police campaign is not the community it has vowed to protect, but select members of the city council. Mayor Valeria Mezcua, whose reelection campaign last year received nearly $100,000 from the police union. Phil Becerra, who received over $82,000 in support from the police union in his 22 city council campaign. campaign. We are witnessing quid pro quo. Fire killer cops Luis Casillas and Isaac Ibarra. Justice for Noy Rodriguez.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Next three speakers, Erica Armenta, Abraham Quintana, Carl Benninger.

Good evening, my name is Erika, I have been coming to this town hall for months to demand justice for my husband and my daughter's father, Noe Rodriguez. I was disarmed and went through a mental health crisis, but the agents Luis Casillas and Isaac Ibarra from the Santana Police Department decided to take his life without escalating the situation.

una de mis hijas quería ser policía de esta ciudad ahora le teme la policía por lo que le hicieron a su padre y ya nunca podrán crecer con él el departamento tampoco entregado ningún informe mis abogados así que hemos tenido que aprender del caso de noé mediante la presión pública y la solicitud de registros desde el primero de diciembre de 2024 cada día hemos luchado para exigir justicia para noé en un vídeo recibido a través de una solicitud de registros públicos los oficiales claramente falla Aaron aleva lo Ari des escalar la situación dos llamadas al 9-11 lo describieron como nombre hispano

pero solo le dieron orden es en inglés esa noche solo pasaron 30 segundos cuando el primer oficial para el vehículo y le dispararon 29 veces a mi esposo no demostraron restricción en usar fuerza letal contra un hombre desarmado y minti erano en su entrevista con el superior inmediatamente después pues exigimos justicia para noé rodriguez tambien exigimos que ustedes botan no al cambio de poderes de la comision de supervision policial las nuevas redacciones a la comision solo permiten revisar las investigaciones de asuntos internos del sap en lugar de realizar una propia

investigación independiente sabemos por experiencia que no se puede confiar en el departamento se investigue asimismo en el caso del incidente de culichi town the investigation of internal matters was sabotaged and intentionally delayed. To this day, the department has not published a report on the murder of Noe Rodríguez. They are excused by saying that it is under the investigation of the Department of Justice, and the Supervision Commission has not had the opportunity to investigate his case. But these changes will make us have to wait even longer for justice to be done.

justice as a municipal council should not choose between serving the people or serving the police the answer is clear we demand accountability and justice for noel rodriguez and that they dismiss the assassins luis casillas and isaac and barra officers

good evening my name is erica armenta i've been coming to the city council meeting for months to to demand justice for my husband and the father of my daughters, Noel Rodriguez. He was unarmed and going through a mental health crisis, but police officers Luis Casillas and Isaac Ibarra from the Santa Ana Police Department decided to take his life. To this day, the officers are still patrolling our streets and have been involved in other violent incidents, including the beating of a 15-year-old. My family and I demand that the city council and the city manager fire immediately

immediately these officers from the department without pay. We want justice to the memory of Noe, and for this to happen, we also are here to demand that you vote against the amendment to the power of the Police Oversight Commission. One of my daughters wanted to be a police officer in this city. Now she's afraid of the police because of what they did to his father, and she's never going to grow up with him by his side. The department has not given any reports to my attorneys

and we have to learn about Noe's case from public pressure and records requests. From December 1st, 2024, every day we've fought to demand justice for Noe and a video received through a public records request officers the officers clearly failed to assess and de-escalate the situation two 9-1-1 calls and officer Ibarra described Noe as a Hispanic man but only gave him commands in English that night just 30 seconds from the time that the

officer stopped his Casillas stopped his vehicle to they shot him 20 shot my husband 29 times They did not exercise restraint in using lethal force against an unarmed man lying in their interview with their superior immediately thereafter. We demand justice for Noe Rodriguez. We also demand that you vote no to the amendment to change the powers of the Police Oversight Commission. The new amendments to the commission allow only for reviewing the Santa Ana Police Department internal affairs investigations instead of realizing their own independent investigation.

We know from experience that you cannot trust that the department will investigate itself. In the case of the incident of Colichi Town, an internal affairs investigation showed that the investigation was sabotaged and delayed intentionally. To this day, the department has not released a report regarding the murder of Noe Rodriguez, and the Oversight Commission has not had the opportunity to investigate its case. but these changes will force us to wait even longer for justice to be done. As the City Council,

you should not choose between serving the people or serving the police. The answer is clear. We demand accountability and justice for Noe Rodriguez. Please.

Good afternoon, City Council and staff and fellow santaneros. My name is Abe, I'm from Ward 3. I'm a member of Community Service Organization and the Police Accountability Committee. And we're here to continue demanding that this, we're here to continue talking about these changes that are being proposed to the city, to the Police Oversight Commission. We're here to continue demanding that you say no to these changes that you make sure that the commission has the powers that it needs to actually remain independent and to actually conduct independent investigations of santa ana police

allegations of misconduct and officer-involved shootings we're also here to continue demanding justice for noe rodriguez who was killed while he was unarmed by two santa ana pd officers luis casillas and isaac ibarra they're still patrolling our streets they're still out there right now they're still harming people as far as we know they killed another man just a month after no way that one of them beat up a 15 year old and quite frankly some of you don't look like you're concerned about that at all so it's it's very troubling to see this here the police

oversight commission currently has the power to independently investigate complaints and make recommendations to the city council and the chief of police when it comes to policy and discipline we need to protect this without this we can't make sure that police are going to be held accountable when they are found guilty of committing violence when they are found guilty of killing unarmed people when they are found guilty of beating up 15 year olds and collapsing their lungs making him lose vision in his eye the changes being proposed will take away these powers as well as the Commission's access to police department

records why would we be taking away an independent Commission's access to records to police records if we didn't want them to do their job why would we be taking that away if we want to make sure that police are being held accountable all of these are critical to achieve their goal the goal that we all all set out to reach when we establish this commission to improve the transparency and accountability of the police department. As Erica mentioned earlier, you as a city council should not be debating between protecting the police or serving the people. Your job is to serve the people. It's not to protect killer cops.

It's not to make sure that you're taking money from the police officers association. It's not to make sure that these same killer cops can continue to patrol our streets every day. While the family has been out here in most of the city council sessions since December 1st demanding justice for their husband and their father. It's shameful, really, that we're still having this debate, that we're still trying to protect killer cops. What else can I say in the next 30 seconds other than, you know, there's a long history of violence with Santa Ana PD. We

know that these officers are killers. We know that they beat people up. We know that they brutalize Santa Ana residents. And that's the point of the Police Oversight Commission. We need people to be comfortable coming forward and talking about these issues and being able to send these complaints without fear of retaliation, because people are afraid of retaliation. We hear that on the streets. We know people know that it's going to happen. And ultimately, it's up to you guys and up to us as a community to come together and make sure that the Oversight Commission has these powers,

to make sure that the Oversight Commission can investigate these officers and hold them accountable for what they do. Justice for Noe Rodriguez. There he goes.

Good evening, Carl, council. Carl Venninger from Ward 4. I sent each of you a letter this week because I think as an engineer, my job was to find long-term solutions. I've talked to you before about citizenship, the importance of citizenship. What I'd like you to do, rather than trying to tell ICE to get out, which we know they're going to be here for the next three and a half years, we know they've just got a billion dollars, so why not push citizenship? We have Lou Correa, who's already, I've talked to him, I talked to him two years ago, very supportive if anyone serves in the military, that's a road to citizenship.

I would like us to write a letter supporting that action. Also, anyone who's been here for 10, 20 years, proven to be a good citizen, that should be a road to citizenship on it. I think also that we should be pushing this. And I realize right now that our immigration laws need to be revamped. We had a presentation to police commission about the U visa and they realized that they only allowed 10,000 of those a year and they have an eight year backlog. It says 80,000 people have been brutalized, helped the police arrest the person that did it, and should be getting green cards.

Why are we taking us so long to do this? I've helped people get citizenship in this country. It can be done. Don't listen to those that will tell you it cannot be done. It can be done. But we need to streamline the way it does it. We should be vending people in months, not years, on it. and it should be done quickly. And if you do the citizenship, you resolve issues like who gets a vote and who doesn't. And citizenship in this country means something. The laws of this country do mean something. On oversight, I'll say one thing. A lot of these changes that are being proposed was done by the city attorney.

And so she explains why she's proposing these on it. I know someone mentioned Long Beach, and I have a pleasure in my Wednesday morning Bible studies and I do pray for Santa Ana in those Bible studies, that our director was Long Beach police. He was second in command for over 10 years. And I talked to him after our last Wednesday about the sessions and what they can do and what they can't do. And they have found their police oversight committee very helpful, very useful following state laws that I think our city attorney's proposing on it. So one thing I'll say, get your education. I paid for my own, I worked hard.

It opened doors for me. And I was 18, I knew everything. When I was 23 and I graduated with my chemical engineering degree, I realized I knew nothing. So for the young people here, please open your eyes to what's happening. Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Next three speakers, Andrea Mezza, Danielle Cano, Carlos Perea.

Thank you to the council. My name is Andrea Mesa and I'm a member of the CSO's Police Accountability Committee. We are here to demand the City Council not pass the ordinance for amending the powers of the Police Oversight Commission. Any ordinance that would strip an oversight commission whose point is to protect people from corruption to strip them of power to independently investigate is the definition of humanity losing its rights. Transparency will always be needed to keep our community safe. Transparency protects those who have experienced prejudice, discrimination, sexual assault, unlawful arrest or

unlawful search, unreasonable or excessive force, in custody deaths and unlawful conduct that interferes with First Amendment assemblies. With with everything happening in this country, in our city, in every state, with being attacked for the color of your skin, First Amendment rights for protesting, when we have unarmed people like Noe Rodriguez being shot almost 30 times by police who are still on the force, it is at an all-time high. This is deplorable that this is even a discussion, that we're even here taking the time to ask you guys to please not even have this on this on the

table this morning an article came out about sapd Nicholas Cavendish another name who's been hidden from the view threatening to kill someone at a traffic stop I will respect the community's preference to not use graphic language I promise but I will finish the exclamation from this officer if I ever catch you back in Santa Ana this body cam is going to go in my car and I'm going to bash your brains in do you understand I'm going to put my gun in your face and once you reach for your waistband I'm going to incomprehensible

I'll put your brains all over the sidewalk and I'll call your mom what Without an oversight commission, who will protect everyday people? Driving, walking, working. What does that mean for the public? What does that mean for our community? Who is already experiencing so much fear for simply being us? As public servants, police who are public servants should be working in the community's best interest. not causing more uncertainty and fear, by allowing even the smallest chance of corruption, you are allowing distrust and violence to continue. Thank you.

Hi, my name is Danielle. I'm a volunteer with OC Rapid Response Network, NCSO. Before I became a volunteer, I was a little girl. I lived in Pico Rivera for, that's where I grew up for most of the part. Sorry, I hate public speaking, but I'm here because this matters.

When I was a little girl, I was in foster care, and I grew up in a house that experienced a lot of abuse, physical and drug abuse. And I loved the police. I mean, they would always come and they would save me and whenever my dad was acting up or they were somebody I could depend on. I loved them so much I had their number memorized, right? Even calling on my dad.

I would even see them out in the streets and I would ask for the autographs because they were superheroes to me for most of my childhood.

And so what we're speaking about today is just so incredibly disappointing because through my time as being a volunteer with OC Rapid Response and showing up as an ice watcher, I've seen some of the things that police have done. And last week I approached a scene where police arrived to an apartment complex and brutalized this elderly couple. couple. They not only went into the wrong apartment complex, they didn't have a warrant. They went into the wrong apartment complex and they brutalized this elderly couple only to later realize that they were in the wrong place. I don't understand why that happened

or how often that happens. I just know that if I wasn't an ice watcher, I would have never known about it. It makes me wonder about the other things that you guys are maybe trying trying to hide from us.

Yeah, sorry, I hate public speaking again, but I think this program is just so important because we need to hold police accountable and we need to make sure that the good cops, I think there are good cops. I want to believe that. And so it breaks my heart to see when there's bad ones acting out of character because it ruins it for everybody. I was a little girl who grew up really admiring the police department and looking to them for safety. and so as an adult it breaks my heart to know that these people are also perpetrators of violence within our communities and you know I think that's

important to acknowledge that you know we were all little kids we all admired them at one point and so our hearts are broken and seeing this happening to our communities that's it thank you

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Carlos Perea Dylan Thompson Zuri

Good evening, Mayor and City Council members. My name is Carlos Perea. I'm a police oversight commissioner representing Council Member Vasquez. First, I want to commend the Council for joining the lawsuit against the racial profiling of our community and aggressive tactics by ICE. I commend you for doing that. It's important that we joined that fight as being the city, one of the cities with the largest immigrant and refugee population. So thank you for that. With that said, I'm here to express my opposition again to the proposed amendments to the police oversight ordinance.

I want to highlight that the commission wasn't engaged in this process. The commissioners have been receiving training for over a year and a half. We have been meeting to prepare ourselves to do the work that you appointed us to do. So I was very disappointed when the ad hoc was established and didn't consult the commission. We should be working together to strengthen the ordinance and the implementation, not not weaken it.

So with that said, the issue that I have, the main issue that I have with these changes is that it is not clear whether or not the commission can look into complaints that are not taken up by internal affairs. That significantly narrows down our scope of work. So if that can be cleared out, that will be very important. It is important that also we have the ability to review and provide feedback to the council

to one of the largest contracts the city has with employees, and that is the Police Officers Association. Association. Again, nothing in POBOR prohibits the City Council to give that role to the Commission. Also, these proposed amendments change the nature of the Police Oversight Commission from being an investigatory entity to just audit. I don't believe that was the the spirit of this ordinance when you approved it, my review of you here on the dais,

and again, nothing in power prohibits local oversight bodies from having that power to investigate complaints. So again, this is something that I'm very concerned about. Please take this back to the commission. Let's have a true conversation on how we can work to improve it, not weaken it. We haven't even begun implementing it, so let us do our work.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Carlos, your time is up.

Hi, my name is Zuri. I'm from Ward 2. I'm here to talk about the item number 15.

I'm here to demand that you guys don't pass this ordinance. It's basically going to make it extremely easy for the police to commit violence against Santa Elena residents. And as the City Council, you guys are put here to protect our interests, not the interests of the police. The original language authorizes the police oversight director to launch independent investigations, subpoena witnesses, and compel the production of evidence. And in the proposed changes, all of that would be striked out and it's just replaced with that they can just audit independent affairs investigation files for certain cases, such

such as officer-involved shooting and sexual assault, among other things, which, as we know, Santa Ana Police has problems with both of those things.

Like Noe Rodriguez, he was an unarmed man, as you guys have all heard. Within 30 seconds of seeing him, Luis Casillas pulled out his gun and shot every single bullet in his gun. only gave him three commands in English, even though he was clearly Hispanic. If he's not responding to that, why didn't they try to speak to him in Spanish? And then his partner goes and shoots him 11 more times. Three of those bullets were as he was falling to the ground. So there was no need for that. 29 shots at an unarmed man who was standing motionless, like, is that not excessive? Why has it been seven months and nothing has been done about it?

Why are they both still on the force? Why is Luis Garcia still committing crimes against Santa Ana residents? A month later, he killed another man, and recently he beat up a 15-year-old kid, broke one of his ribs, collapsed his lung, and broke his orbital bone.

So clearly, the police cannot police itself. So that's why we need this Police Oversight Commission, and we can't be stripping away the powers of the Police Oversight Commission. commission. Because like, okay, I'm going to talk to you guys, like, if you say that you believe in God, right, Mayor Meskwa? If you guys believe in God, you should know that God is the all-knowing, he's the all-powerful, and he's watching you. He's watching everything that you're doing. And you're going to have to answer to him on the day of judgment. You're going to have to tell him,

I, as the mayor of Santa Ana, propose these changes to strip the power of the police Oversight Commission to make it easy for the cops to commit violence against our residents of Santa Ana, to be able to kill them, and to be able to sexually assault little girls, 15 year old girls that were assaulted in Calechiton without any consequences, without them having to face any type of disciplinary actions. Yeah, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Good evening, Council, Mayor. I'm here to speak against item 15. A lot of people have given great reasons. I really want to piggyback on what the first commissioner was saying. This feels like a Trojan horse of an ordinance or an amendment because it's saying it'll align with state law and enhance transparency, improve operational efficiency and best practices and law enforcement accountability. But exactly which part of gutting the investigatory powers does that? Which category bucket does that fall in? Kind of vaguely, if you read the report, it vaguely alludes to clarifying roles and responsibility,

prevent the duplication of efforts, increase operational efficiency. But this isn't about operational efficiency. We always knew they investigate themselves, so when we passed this originally, we knew that. It would be even more efficient to just not do it at all. But that's not the point at hand here. We needed it, a new internal control, because to achieve the goals of this commission. What was it? It was written in the report. It said the purpose of the Police Oversight Commission is to enhance transparency, increase accountability of and police confidence in the Santa Ana Police Department.

But you're not going to achieve that by passing this. So this needs a lot of work. There might be good things in here. If you want to align with state law, go rewrite this. Add that stuff in. That's great. But why do you have to gut all the things on each of those changes? They need to be justified Why those are being made it's not clear in the report. Thanks vote. No

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

The next the next three speakers Adriana Alvarez American the Hera and Francisco Gomez

Good evening, Council and Mayor. My name is Adriana Alvarez. I'm a resident of Ward 4 and I am here to speak on Item 15. I urge you to please not pass the proposed ordinance amending the powers of the Police Oversight Commission. Commission. This ordinance would weaken one of our city's most important tools of accountability. The proposed changes, like many have mentioned, would limit the Commission's power to investigate, restrict what topics it can even look into, strip its ability to report on police policies and procedures directly to the City Council, make discussions of police misconduct and

and confidential removing the transparency of our community demands. Eliminate the independent oversight director which undermines the integrity of the commission, allows biased non-independent training, and disguises a coverup as compliance with state law. This is not what meaningful oversight looks like. This is not what Santana residents ask for and need. We need strong, independent, transparent oversight, not a tokenized, silenced version of it. Please do not vote to pass this ordinance. Our community deserves better. Thank you.

Good evening, my name is America Najera. I'm a long time resident of Santana, left for a couple of years to the IE and have come back recently to Santana, unfortunately to the same. The same thing, the disappointment, the anger that comes with living in a town where our people are used as ways of trying out new policies like the gang injunctions that destroyed families, like policies and trainings of police departments used on our own people all the time. I come not with an organization, I come directly as a resident that has grown in this city, that has raised kids here,

that has seen the violence that our people have been going through for decades, almost two decades as an organizer and nothing has changed. Maybe the paces here up in front have changed. Although Valerie, I've seen you since many years, I've even worked with your father in many things and it's very disappointing to see that you continue to support the people that apparently put in a lot of money to put you where you are. So it's just another example of how good of an investment the police department and the union has put in that we're here in this place for something, changes that completely disrupt the work

that many have done for many years, to be able to give power to the people to hold the police department that is supposed to serve us accountable. I do not understand, I directly just wanna know why. Why do you feel that these changes are necessary if you want to have a good working city, if you wanna hold people accountable, you support the police department of Mezcloa, what are you afraid of people finding? I mean, why is there no reason to really allow folks to hold bad conduct accountable? I don't understand why you would take that away. If we're going within structures that have been shown

to work in other cities, nothing that's outside of what other cities have already been doing, why are we taking away things that are gonna allow us to hold people accountable? Think people that aren't doing their job right. people that are attacking youth on the streets, people that are killing our citizens. I mean, who do you represent? Where you continue just to sit here como una hipocrita defendiendo a las personas que te pusieron ahí. O sea, no sé, no sé qué decirte. Again, it's disappointing. And I guess I'm just gonna have to get involved again because I can't live in a city and turn my eye away

for the violence that's brought on to our citizens, to the youth, to the people that I've seen grow. they now have to be afraid to freaking be able to think can i call the police are they going to come in and help me or are they going to take my family away are they going to kill my family member because there's no one that's going to hold them accountable

Mayor Redekopal.

My name is Francisco Gomez.

Mayor, you are one blessing that my city has. I'm on your side on the positive decisions that you've made and the changes that you've done for this city. I thank you. There are certain things that are going on and they're difficult decisions that are that are made but the positivity that you've done for this city. Trust me from the bottom of my heart by the bottom of my family's heart. We thank you continue your positivity continue your hard work. The first female mayor of Santa Ana. You are a good person and I know it.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

I just like to remind members of the audience, and I haven't done this in a long time, you know, people come up to this podium to share how they feel, their opinions, and many of you came up this evening. I don't remember anyone booing you. I think it takes a lot of courage for anyone, whatever your voice is, whatever your message is. So could we please keep to our decorum and allow everyone to exercise that fundamental right to speak? Thank you.

That's fine. They can boo me. I can care less.

The other thing too, I wish Jonathan was here. And if you can hear me in the back, this is the third week that he doesn't do the Pledge of Allegiance. And I apologize. I meant to take my hat off earlier. The Pledge of Allegiance means a lot. It means a lot to our service members, our police department, our fire department. It meant a lot to my mother when she first said it when she became a citizen. That was like the most, for her the most beautiful thing she ever did because now she's, her tears ran down her face when she said it for the first time. That means she was legal.

That means she was able to go back and forth from the US to Mexico. It's an important thing. And hopefully, Jonathan, if you're back there, continue to do the Pledge of Allegiance for them. For the gardener that has three Marines that are service members, do the Pledge of Allegiance for him. I know it's very difficult for what's going on right now. Even I disagree with it, but the simple thing of the Pledge of Allegiance, it's very important for a lot of people and a lot of people's hopes and dreams. The reason why I'm here, I was born here,

but my parents came here. When my dad did it too, it was tears down his eyes. It gave him that freedom to go back and forth. The chief of police, there's difficult things I heard a lot. The only thing I can say positive is may God bless you and all your men and women. I understand everybody has families and they want to go home at the end of the day. Hopefully they get to. There's difficult decisions when they're out on the field.

It's a tough job.

at the end of the day they have families and i understand that and my my wife's family went through something like that and she understands at the end of the day they're human they want to go home to their families five seconds left may god bless you may god bless the city of santa ana

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

and your time is up thank you very much mayor and city council that concludes the public speakers that are present we'll now begin with the zoom speakers speakers on zoom when you're unmuted Please announce your name and the ward or neighborhood that you reside in within the city for the record. First speaker, Marlene Ortega.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Marlene Ortega, please unmute.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Next speaker, whose phone number ends in 477?

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Caller 477, please unmute.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Nina Jurek.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Nina Jurek. Hi. Hi. Please go ahead.

Okay, great, thank you. Nina Jurek, resident of Ward 5 for over six years. Thank you for allowing me to speak in front of you once again. I'd like to ride the wave that Mayor Mezcua made proclaiming July to be the Parks and Recreation Month.

Reason I'm here, you've seen me before. That's exactly what the residents of Washington Square are looking for, is a walkable park in our neighborhood.

You've seen me speak and some of my neighbors for over two years now. Matter of fact, this summer marks the start of our third year of expressing our vision, our desire to have that walkable park. Many city employees and officials have actually touched, seen, and reviewed some of the data of that vacant property for sale. sale. We've got a willing seller. We have every desire, everything within our being as a community to build a gathering place. A gathering place to watch our children, a

gathering place to meet with our neighbors, just a nice relaxing environment. We're an environmental justice area, as you well know. Whatever we can do to work with city officials to help make that a reality. We are here for you. I know some work has been done. How could we push it along a little further? I can assure you of participation from Washington Square. So as the tagline was, build together, play together. That's what we'd like to do. Thank you for your time.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Next speaker, Tiffany Bailey.

Good evening. My name is Tiffany Bailey. I am the deputy project director of the ACLU of Southern California's criminal justice and police practices project. I am providing public comment on agenda item 15 concerning proposed amendments to the police oversight commission. The ACLU of Southern California has reviewed the extensive proposed amendments to the ordinance and I'm here to provide comment on some of our grave concerns about how these amendments will serve to only only to eliminate critical oversight powers and transparency measures changes that will surely result in a weakened commission that is unable to carry out its

oversight oversight functions of our many concerns i wanted to raise three first the amendments completely removed the independent investigations component of the ordinance eliminating a critical component that community members ask for and which serves as a critical guardrail to ensure sure that the commission does not just merely rubber stamp the actions of law enforcement, but truly oversees their actions. Second, in a quite disturbing fashion, the confidentiality section now provides that civil or criminal penalties can be attached for any confidentiality

breaches. This is unnecessary because there's already state laws governing disclosure of law enforcement personnel records and state penal code section 832.7. Also, given what we've seen unfold in LA with the prosecution of Diana Turan, it's a dangerous precedent that will surely have have a chilling effect on oversight. And finally, the amendments narrow the types of complaints that can be reviewed, as many folks have already given public comment on. For certain categories of misconduct, like sexual assault and dishonesty, it only allows for commission review if SAPD's internal affairs has made a sustained finding of misconduct.

This is deeply problematic because it practically means that egregious misconduct, like sexually assaulting civilians, is only reviewable if SAPD itself has already sustained that finding that's not how oversight is supposed to work the oversight body can't be limited to reviewing cases that the department has already sustained i think this might be a mistake in importing of language from sb16 into a context that simply does not work in short the community fought long and hard for this council to bring an effective oversight body to santa ana and with the

appointment of the recent oversight director the city is on the precipice of actualizing the independent oversight and transparency goals detail in the establishing ordinance now is not the time to make sweeping changes that will gut the commission's power an oversight body that provides the appearance appearance of community focused transparency and accountability that it ultimately cannot and will not deliver is far worse than no oversight body at all we urge the city council to reject any proposed amendments if the city council is unwilling to do so at this

time, we ask that the city attorney prepare a detailed memo explaining precisely how these changes are necessary to abide by Pobar as the staff report merely just cites to the entire statute. Without further explanation and analysis, to my eye, many of these changes are policy-based and they are bad policy. The committee deserves and needs more information from the city to better understand the proposed changes. Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

»» Marlene Ortega?

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Please unmute.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Marlene?

»» Can you hear me?

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

»» Yes, please go ahead.

»» Out of curiosity, it's going to be me and my little sister speaking as well. She'll be speaking for the first time. Hello?

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Hello, please proceed with your public comments.

Hi, my name is Mary Ortega. Hi, my name is Mary Ortega.

And I am nine years old, belonging to Ward 4. My family and I are against.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

All right.

Phil BacerraItem 5

Hi, my name is Mary Ortega.

When we're against Ordinance 15, the people of Santa Ana are scared and vulnerable with what's going on right now with the current immigration rates. And so we can understand that police cannot really do anything with like federal coming into the community, but it'd be really important for us. if we could not go with awareness 15 because it is very much weakening the public trust

for sure and we really do need this oversight so we can hold them accountable thank you

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

caller whose number ends in 477 7. Please unmute.

Yeah, this is Dale Helbig, 35 year resident of warp three. Sorry, I couldn't be there tonight, but I have a few medical issues that I'm dealing with.

And I would just like to say that I appreciated the comments from Tybett Sam,

CONCERNING NABEEL. I APPRECIATE THE SERVICE THAT HE'S PROVIDED TO THE COMMUNITY. HE'S ALWAYS PROVIDED ME SUPPORT, DIRECTED ME TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE. AND HE'LL BE MISSED. AND I'D ALSO LIKE TO THANK CARL'S REMARKS. I APPRECIATE IT. and I also appreciate his service for Tom like president over the years thank you and have a good

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

night mayor and city council that concludes the speakers that were in the queue when we began

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

thank you madam clerk we're going to go to the consent calendar now items 5 through 14 and before us council members please announce any items you will be abstaining from due to conflict or if there are any items you'd like to pull

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Councilmember Vazquez. I'm sorry. Councilmember Panalosa. I apologize.

David PenalozaItem 5

No items, support mayor.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Councilmember Phan.

Thai Viet PhanItem 5

Just a noted recusal on item 12 as Olive Crest is a pro bono client of my employer, Rattan and Tucker. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Serra.

Phil BacerraItem 5

I was going to pull item 12, but I guess not now. Joking. I'm joking. Go ahead. None to pull. None to pull.

I'm joking.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Councilman Hernandez.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'll make a motion to move the consent calendar with a brief comment on item 12.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Go ahead.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just wanted to share... I'll second this motion, sorry.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Thank you.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

Thank you, Councilmember Penalosa. I just want to share a brief comment before we take the vote. Item 12 is a density bonus agreement to facilitate the construction of a 15-unit multi-family residential development. development. The organization, Olive Crest, has been a partner to the county and to the city for many years. Olive Crest is an organization that focuses on family reunification and foster services. They're a well-established organization. I just want to commend all of my colleagues here for supporting them. Thank you.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

That will conclude my comments, Madam Mayor.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

All right. Let's go to the vote, please.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Please vote.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

If you need to, Madam Clerk, you can do a roll call.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Thank you.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

The vote is 7 ayes, no nays. Motion carries with a noted 6 ayes. Thank you. 6 ayes, no nays with a recorded absence by Councilmember Lopez and a noted recusal on Item number 12 by Councilmember Fan. Motion carries. That concludes the consent calendar

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

as no items were pulled. Thank you. At this time we are going to go to the business calendar. Item number 15, Police Oversight Commission Ordinance Amendment. Mr. City Manager, may we

Alvaro NuñezItem 5

please have the staff presentation. Yes, Deputy City Manager, Celia Vasquez with the presentation.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Thank you.

Good evening. Good evening members of the city council. Tonight we are presenting the first reading of an ordinance amending article 4 to chapter 2 of the Santa Ana municipal code relating to the police oversight commission. While the commission was established in 2022 we have seen transparency and accountability as the oversight commission has has become operational and the appointment of the oversight director's contract was approved during the last city council meeting. It is important to recognize that you have two options before you. One, keep the current ordinance, or two, adopt the recommended policy changes.

These amendments of the ordinance are a result of a collaboration between the city manager's office, the city attorney's office, the Santa Ana Police Department, and the police oversight ad hoc committee comprised of Mayor Mezcua, Mayor Pro Tempestas, Council Member Becerra, which determined that the following updates to the ordinance were necessary to maintain the intention of the Commission and avoid conflicts with the law one issue identified is the dual investigation process currently in the ordinance this process leads to two interviews of officers one by internal

affairs and a second by the police oversight Commission which may create a conflict with pole bar and lead to civil exposure there may be confusion regarding the interview process for parties involved and this can create conflict. A second major issue identified is based on the city manager form of government as established by the city charter. The Charter states that all officers and department heads of the city except the city attorney and the city clerk shall be appointed by the city manager and shall thereafter serve at the pleasure of the city manager. The amendments help align keep would help

align and keep within the ordinance of the within the Charter by providing that that the Police Oversight Director act in independent role from the Police Department, but within the City Manager's executive authority in the charter. Again, still independent from the Police Department. The ordinance includes refinements to strengthen the structure, clarify rules and responsibilities, and ensure alignment with state laws, including the Public Safety Officer Procedural Bill of Rights Act, and various Penal and Evidence Code provisions. In the ad hoc, different models were discussed,

Thus, and this commission determined that the audit form similar to the cities of Los Angeles, both city and county, Long Beach, Pasadena and Orange County was considered to be an effective option in that the Police Oversight Commission would retain the ability to review internal affairs investigations and make recommendations to the Chief of Police prior to the Chief's final determination. With this process, complaints received by the Police Oversight Commission would be sent to internal affairs investigation the investigation would conclude and the police oversight director

and the police oversight commission would make recommendations on that investigation the proposed changes would also reinforce the commission's advisory role enhance its training and operational capacity and ensure more transparent and legally sound compliant review process ultimately these revisions aim to support a more effective civilian oversight framework and And further, our shared goal of building public trust. Now I'd like to take a moment and turn it over to the City Attorney's Office to share some words. Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem and Council Members. Tamara Boghossian with the City Attorney's Office.

I think it's important that we look to how we got here. The original ordinance was presented to the Council at a time when there was a compromise that was being made between competing interests. There was community input, input from other attorneys, from the Police Department, and of course the City Manager's Office. What I want to remind the Council is that the City Attorney's Office was involved in preparing initial reports advising the Council of the different models used throughout the country, including the Auditor-Monitor model. The City Attorney's Office initially helped prepare

the original ordinance that was adopted by this Council and at that time pointed out potential legal challenges that could result in the implementation of the ordinance based on the charter and our city manager form of government here in Santa Ana we understand there were some delays in implementing the ordinance but with a new police chief and a new city manager our absolute commitment has and always will be to bring this Commission up to speed and to get it going so that we could dig into the concerns of the community and address those the process that we used was by way of an ad hoc committee as you know which consisted of

Mayor Mesquite, Councilmember Becerra, and Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez, who met several times and started to receive numerous recommendations on the issues. Our office then drafted language to match those issues and recommendations. This was a collaborative process, both between the police department, the city manager's office, the city attorney's office, and of course, predominantly the ad hoc committee. We respect that there are people in the community that are committed to the original version of the ordinance. However, the amendments that you now see before you, we're prepared to further insulate the

City from any challenges in the implementation of the ordinance. As the staff report indicates, our united recommendation is for Council to consider these amendments. However, Council has an alternative, and that is precisely what Ms. Vasquez said, to take no action. I will now turn it back over to Ms. Vasquez to present her PowerPoint presentation. Thank you, Tamara. Council members, thank you again. Now let's go through the ordinance, the different sections and we will explain a little bit on why certain changes were recommended by the Ad Hoc Committee.

Section 2-660, the establishment and purpose. purpose. This clarifies that the commission provides oversight through the police oversight director, and it also clarifies that the police oversight director or changes that the police oversight director is independent from the police department and provides for review, analysis and recommendation on police practices. This is the audit model versus the investigative model type of recommendation. recommendation.

And as earlier stated, one of the reasons is again to make sure that we are aligning with the City Manager's Executive Authority to maintain the city charter. And also a little bit later in the presentation we'll go over the difference between the audit and investigative models.

The next section, Membership and Terms, Section 2-661. This outlines the structure of the commission calling for the seven members. There are no major changes. This is just clarifying language on the qualifications just referencing Section 2-662. And it just makes minor edits.

The qualifications of commissioners, Sections 2-662, that has not changed with the exception of language regarding appointment removal vacancies in compliance with Senate and Municipal Code 2-662, I'm sorry, Senate and Municipal Code 2-326 which is standard for all commissions.

Section 2-663, Commissioner Confidentiality and Training. This is to prevent the release of sensitive information and it adds information stating that failure to comply with the terms of the confidentiality agreement shall result in the removal of the commission and or legal consequences in a commissioner's individual individual capacity including but not limited to the criminal and or civil penalties. So it also talks about the removal of a commissioner in compliance with Santa Ana Municipal Code Section 2-326.

This section also keeps a third party training for commissioners that's currently in the ordinance. But it also adds the participation of a ride along within 90 days. It also adds attending the Community Police Academy within 18 months. And the Community Police Academy includes PD commanders providing practical training on communications, patrol operations, Santa Ana jail, crime scene investigations, investigations in internal affairs, air support, traffic support, motor officers, directed patrol, use of force, homicide gangs, and SWAT.

These are courses provided twice a year, and each course is approximately two to three hours long. The ad hoc felt that including these requirements would benefit the commissioners as it provides the practical knowledge of how the Santa Ana Police Department operations work firsthand. So again, it's not removing the third party training. It's just adding additional training.

Section 2-664 in regards to meetings. meetings. This is establishing the monthly meeting schedule for the second Tuesday of each month starting at 5 p.m. It also provides a process for commissioners to request agenda items similar to what council members do when you submit a memo to the city manager and then that gets placed on the agenda for review by the whole body. It also codifies that the city manager or designee manages the agenda submissions and the meeting support. So it It just establishes clear roles and responsibilities in supporting Commission meetings.

Section 2-665, powers and duties of the Commission. This talks about what authority is granted to the Police Oversight Commission. The change is that the POC may review misconduct post internal affairs investigations. The types of complaints remain the same. But this is based on an audit versus an investigation. investigation. The police oversight commission reviews, evaluates and makes recommendations to the chief of police on these investigations. And again, the types of investigations have not changed. It's the fact that they are being reviewed post internal affairs.

Section 2-666, what's the oversight director's role? This is to support the commission reviewing reviewing the internal affairs cases after completion, ensuring compliance with POBAR and is appointed by the city manager with council confirmation. Again, this is to ensure that our city charter is being followed and that the administrative processes fall within the City of Santa Ana executive body, which is a city manager. This also explicitly prohibits retroactive reviews and incidents prior to the ordinance, which was already in place. and it requires publication of qualifying investigations post review in compliance with

SB 1421. That is still currently in place. The purpose of this section is to clarify the rule and strengthen the safeguards for Police Officer Bill of Rights in due process. Section 2-667, the change clarifies the City Manager's role in requesting funding for the Police Oversight Commission and Oversight Director in the City's Annual Budget. The City Budget is an item that is prepared by the City Manager and then is voted upon by City Council.

Section 2-668, this is in alignment with Government Code 3303, PC 832.5, 3832.7, and 832.8 and Evidence Code 1043 and 1046. This change clarifies that access must be prompt and complete but subject to all laws. This also mandates concurrent delivery of state reported data to the Commission. So this is a balance of transparency within legal compliance.

Section 2-669, rules and records. The City Manager and Oversight Director set the Commission rules adopted by City Council counsel with clear record keeping obligations except where law mandates confidentiality. The purpose is to codify the procedure while safeguarding protected information.

The section on severability 2-669 has no change. This is just that if any of the provisions are found to be unlawful or void, the rest of the ordinance remains enforceable or intact. Act.

Section 2-671 and 2-699. These sections are placeholders for any future provisions related to oversight that are kind of like placeholders in case there's any additional changes to this ordinance in the future. So in conclusion, the summary of the intent. This is providing structured lawful oversight, clarifies Commissioner responsibilities, protects protects police officers' Bill of Rights. The proposed amendments establish a clear framework for a city that authorizes the commission and the independent oversight director to provide informed recommendations to the chief of police

following the completion of internal affairs investigations with sustained findings, prior to the final determination by the chief on that investigation. This structure is designed to preserve the integrity of the oversight process while aligning with state law and minimizing potential legal exposure to the city under the current ordinance. Now I would like to take a moment to hand over the presentation to Independent Oversight Director T. Jack Morse to provide you with additional information regarding his experience with the investigative versus the audit model proposed here today.

»» Thank you, City Council Members, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem. My name is Jack Morse. I've been the oversight director for two weeks now, but I've been working in police oversight since 2010, including nearly eight years in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice under the Obama administration. I have worked with law enforcement agencies, and I have investigated law enforcement agencies across the country, and I have seen deep divisions between communities and the law enforcement agencies that police them. And I saw aspects of that here tonight.

There are community members here in Santa Ana who distrust the police, who have pain associated with the police department and that pain is palpable. I acknowledge that and I think it's worth noting noting at the beginning that in both the current ordinance and in the revised ordinance that the city council is considering, a primary purpose of the police commission and the oversight director is to bridge that divide, to increase trust between the public and the police department. And I will work with the police commission to try to make that happen.

I can provide some context and background and some factors that the City Council may consider as it weighs whether or not to adopt a model that is largely rooted in investigations or rooted in a more auditing model and to do this I'd like to draw on a metaphor from my days at the Justice Justice Department.

So I worked in the Civil Rights Division in the Civil Division, and my team members and I, as attorneys, could investigate law enforcement agencies to look for patterns or practices of unconstitutional conduct. This could be patterns of excessive force, discrimination in the forms of pedestrian stops, vehicle stops, whatever. whatever, where we found a pattern or practice of unconstitutional conduct, we would then look at the root causes that was creating that pattern of misconduct. We would look at policies. We would look at training.

We would look at the police culture. Were officers being trained on bias-free policing? Was there a community-oriented policing model in place? place, we would look at the problems within the police department that were resulting in the misconduct we were seeing. In other words, we were auditing these law enforcement agencies, identifying problems, and then filing a lawsuit to fix them through a revision of policies, protocols, training, and culture.

That's essentially the way I see the auditing model. Now, when I was at DOJ down the hall, you had the criminal section. And attorneys in the criminal section were charged with investigating individual officers and filing criminal actions against those officers for individual instances of criminal conduct. So they were addressing police misconduct one officer at a time. They weren't looking at the underlying problems that resulted in that excessive

use of force or discrimination or whatever it may be. They were addressing the problem after the fact. So again I think the investigation model largely largely addresses police misconduct after the fact, I think the auditing model can be a tool to prevent misconduct from happening in the first place because you're getting at problematic policies, training, protocols, culture that may be resulting in officer misconduct. Now, let me walk through some various additional factors

that the City Council might continue to consider as it weighs this issue. One is, quite frankly, cost. If you look at oversight agencies that have an investigative model like Oakland, it's expensive. Oakland has a community police review agency, the CPRA. It has a full-time director, and last I checked, it had six full-time investigators to investigate all the complaints that they were charged with investigating.

With the current structure, with the police commission here in Santa Ana,

I'm it. As I read the ordinance, I'm the one, the current ordinance, I'm the one with the authority to investigate police complaints. Just to put that in context with some numbers. If I conduct an investigation that entails one complainant, one subject officer, and only one witness, plus a modest review of documents, data, and body-worn camera footage, that investigation can last about 40 hours and cost about $15,000.

dollars if I conduct one investigation per month at that rate that's a hundred eighty thousand dollars for the year and three hundred sixty thousand dollars for two years which is already more than a hundred thousand dollars over budget and that doesn't account for time to review policies attend police oversight commissions or attend City Council meetings so just some considerations considerations there if the city council wants to move forward with an investigative model, it may also consider more resources.

In addition, I'll talk about, and this is getting in the weeds a bit, but complications that can be addressed, but will need to be addressed if an investigative model implemented here in Santa Ana. Per police policy, the police department is required to investigate every complaint that it becomes aware of, whether that complaint is filed with the police commission or directly with the police department or whether or not an officer just hears about it on the street. The police

department has to investigate that and I understand that's handled by internal internal affairs. If the oversight commission or the oversight director is also investigating that same complaint, the issue with Pobar is with Pobar and related case law, you really should only interrogate that officer once. So there's a case emanating out of Santa Ana, Santa Ana POA versus the city of Santa Ana decided by the 4th District Court of Appeals that says if an officer is interrogated a second time for the same allegation, then that investigator

has to turn over underlying documents, reports, notes, et cetera, which that officer can then review, and in my view, that could shape how that officer responds in the second interrogation. I don't think that that's an outcome that's desirable. So the question then becomes, if IA investigates that officer first, does the oversight director just forego a secondary investigation and rely on a recorded interview from the IA investigator?

Or Pobar also says that an interrogation can entail two investigators at a time. so in theory a subject officer could be interviewed simultaneously by an IA investigator and the oversight director but is that investigation independent

regarding optics that appears to be an investigation conducted jointly by the Oversight Commission and Internal Affairs so not potentially truly truly independent. Now again, this is the model that's in place in Oakland, and that's what they do. They have an IA investigator and a CPRA investigator in the room at the same time interrogating that officer, but the IA investigator takes the lead, and in their model, the IA investigator has to approve the CPRA investigator's questioning.

just something to consider as you move forward. One other point that I'd like to make is that in both the current version of the ordinance and in the proposed revisions, again, a primary purpose of the oversight commission is to improve public confidence in the police department. department.

So something that council should consider is what the message to the community is if the commission is also investigating individual officers. The message could potentially be you can't trust the police to investigate officers via the internal affairs process. I know that the distrust is already there among members of the community. How can the city most effectively address that?

I believe that with sufficient reform efforts, and my vision as I've worked with police departments and sheriff's departments across the United States, is is to improve those agencies across the board so that members of the community don't think twice about calling the police when their loved one may be in mental health crisis. They don't think twice about filing a complaint with the police department because they can trust that police agency to investigate their own.

Now, the Oversight Commission is there to be sure that they're doing a good job. And if they're not, the Oversight Commission can call them out publicly on that. The Oversight Commission will be releasing public reports that at a very minimum can look at internal affairs investigations, determine what went right, what went wrong, and make recommendations as to how this process can be improved moving forward.

So, again, if the goal is to repair that relationship between the police department and the public, as oversight director, I want to look at the police department as a whole and make it better as an entire department. department.

Briefly, in terms of other models that the city council may look toward, the investigative sorry the auditing model is in place with the Los Angeles Police Department Office of Inspector General, the LA County Office of Inspector General, and the oversight bodies in Long Beach, Pasadena, and Orange County. I think Pasadena is is notable because its current structure is much like that which is in place here in in Santa Ana Pasadena has a police commission and a

single independent police auditor IPA Teresa Magula who is contracted with the city she's actually with the way with the OIR group and she bills Pasadena per per hour for her work as the IPA. And she refused internal affairs investigations and makes and releases public reports critiquing those investigations and creating a blueprint for how that process can be improved moving forward.

I mentioned that the investigative model is in place in Oakland. Oakland, the former director there, Aaron Zisser, is a friend of mine. I talked to him about that process yesterday. He was the director there in 2022. He said that they did have some issues with backlog, and they did have some instances when they missed that one year mark within which investigations must take place. So again, as long as the resources are there, That model can potentially be successful, but the resources have to be there.

Something else to consider is the San Diego Commission on Police Practices. They have sort of a hybrid model in place where the oversight body reviews IA investigations, and where warranted, they can redo those investigations, essentially. And then finally, there's one other jurisdiction to consider is the San Francisco Police Department's Department of Police Accountability.

The DPA there, as I understand it, they investigate all community-filed complaints. And the police department, the IA division, investigates all internally generated complaints. So I don't know how they work that out politically, but as I understand it, you don't have the dual investigations, you don't have different investigators investigating the same incidents because again, the DPA is investigating community complaints and the IA is investigating internally generated complaints.

Those are the thoughts that I have for you to consider on this issue. I'm happy to answer any questions if there are any and if there's time.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

So the council if you have any questions I'm sorry Madam Deputy I'll let you chat right now so I just want to include if you have questions please raise your mic and then I'll call on you. Go ahead Deputy City Manager and thank you so much Jack if you want to stay for please.

Yes council members now is the time to ask questions of our city manager our city attorney Mr. Morris will also be here for any questions.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

Thank you. Before we start, I'd like to ask our city attorney. Jack, they're asking you

to sit over there. Thank you. Welcome to the family, Jack. It's not the hot seat, I promise.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

Okay. Madam City Attorney, I see, I'm sorry. So can you talk a little bit about, Sonia, Madam Secretary Tamara, why was this ad hoc put together in the first place, please?

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 1

Mayor and Council members, the reason we put the ad hoc committee together was this. Our office was very involved from the very beginning of this process. As Ms. Fagosian mentioned, she did the early research on the different types of models that existed throughout the country. When we put the ordinance together in 2022 and we took that to the Council, it did reflect a compromise at the time and I know we I did personally work with members of the ACLU and others in the community when we put that together but I do want to remind everyone that I said at that time that we were really pushing the limits

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 1

of our city charter because of the formation of our government and that it might take time to see how this ordinance would be implemented over time then due to some changes in staff primarily the change of the police chief and our city manager, it provided us another opportunity to take a look at the ordinance and also to have received feedback, feedback from the very people that were going to be impacted by the ordinance. And so what happened is with the new chief and the new manager, we sat down to talk about the delayed implementation and what we were going to do to move forward.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 1

And during those conversations, we as staff thought that would be a good time to explore some of the issues that had been raised because this ordinance had been sitting for a while and we did have new people involved and we knew it would be critical to the implementation of the ordinance to make sure that our city manager was aware of how it was going to function in terms of how the process was going to be funded also for the new police chief to understand how this would impact the department all with this goal as mr. Moore said it was to create this trust

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 1

in the community to make sure that we had a properly functioning department so So I want to make it very clear that no one on the City Council, no member of the Ad Hoc Committee, Council Member Becerra or Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez or the Mayor, asked us to create the Ad Hoc Committee. We went to you and said, we think it would be a good time to take a look at this ordinance. Would you please appoint the Ad Hoc Committee? So that's how the Ad Hoc Committee was formed. The Ad Hoc Committee never gave us direction on changes. changes. The ad hoc committee never said this is how we want to see the ordinance amended

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 1

or as some have insinuated to be torn apart. This was a staff driven activity where we came to you saying now that we've had the benefit of time and the benefit of fresh eyes, we'd like you to look at some of these issues.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

Thank you Madam City Attorney for clarifying that and that's how we'll start off because I know that there's misinformation that the Mayor, Councilman Becerra you know wanted this commission for other reasons and then just want to be clear as you indicated there are three ad hoc members Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez, myself and Councilman Becerra so thank you for sharing that and let's get started so what we'll do is if you'd like to speak please Please raise your mic. We'll go three times around. If we need to go more, we will. And so Mr. City Manager, Deputy City Manager Jack Jonathan, Tamara, both of you were in

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

the ad hoc meetings as well as the City Attorney. Could one of you share please who exactly was in that ad hoc with us please? Is that allowed? I just want to. So we had Sonya or somebody?

Absolutely. Absolutely. It was the three ad hoc committee members. Mr. Martinez who is an Assistant City Attorney with our office, myself as a Senior Assistant assistant city attorney or city manager and his staff.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

Great. Thank you. All right. Let's start with some questions. We'll start Mayor Pro Tem.

Benjamin VazquezItem 1

I was listening to your speech in the beginning. You said you like the audit model because it would change policing policy. And one way you did that through that was litigation. Is that how you change policing policy? Is that the main course? Because a we said is why there may be little we changing it because there may be litigation there can be litigation we don't want litigation so and this is going to be now placed in the city manager's office who would have to litigate his own city or its own police department so i'm a little worried about

Benjamin VazquezItem 1

that because in the in the past our old city manager had told me that she had done her own investigation on Colicci town. She let me know like even as she went down and did her own investigation on Colicci. So I'm worried and it's not the city manager we have right now it's not it's not the city manager we but in the future or any other city manager how might we avoid this. Can I just ask for a clarifying question?

Valerie AmezcuaItem 1

So when you said litigation would be in the city manager's office. I was asking

Benjamin VazquezItem 1

because he said that they changed policy through litigation. Okay, just want to make sure, go ahead.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Temp. I can clarify. So the complaint that we filed in federal court was largely a means to an end. Very rarely did those cases go to trial. But what we wanted was a court enforceable agreement. agreement. So our investigations would typically take at least a year. We were doing thorough audits. We were looking at use of force reports, pedestrian stops, vehicle stops. We were analyzing policies. We were attending training. We were going on ride-alongs. We wanted to understand

that police department inside and out. And once we identified a pattern, let's say it's It's a pattern of excessive use of force in violation of the Fourth Amendment. We go to the police department and say, here's what we found, and here's why we think it's happening. Your training is deficient. Your policies are deficient. You're not meeting with the community.

Your officers are acting based on implicit bias. So here's the blueprint for how we want to fix it. You need to make these changes to policies, et cetera. You need to have more robust de-escalation training. You need to have more robust bias-free training. So in order to get a court enforceable agreement, we would file a complaint in federal court, and then right after it, we would file a settlement agreement that the municipality had already agreed to. So it's not usually, we weren't fighting this out in court.

The complaint was just a formality so that we could get a court enforceable agreement.

I'm happy to further clarify if you have.

Alvaro NuñezItem 2

But just to clarify, and just put some level of context, and Mr. Morris can correct me. That was his previous assignment of working with a different entity. In this capacity, right, he would not have to file, let's say litigation because his position as director of with the commission is exactly to do the same thing as a third party entity right so he doesn't have to file litigation we we hire him specifically for that to look for those patterns to propose those policy changes right there's no need for litigation because that's in essence his primary responsibility

Alvaro NuñezItem 2

to avoid that, to work with the community, to make sure that he looks for those patterns, and to avoid that enacting what this policy changes are aimed to do.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

I just want to mention that it was the Department of Justice that he was working for, so the Department of Justice to cause and create that change would file those complaints, and that way they could get that court order for like a consent decree or an order to do what they needed to do. That is not his role here. He was just using that as an example. And if I could just for one moment I want to comment on the Colucci Town report because this is an issue that comes up.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

Madam City Attorney, can we fix the mics please? I don't know what's going on.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

Yes, we just called to the back. I'm sorry? We just called to the back. Okay, thank you. Go ahead, Madam City Attorney. I'm so grateful to the City Manager for fixing the length of the mic so I can just use this other one as an alternative now. I just want to make sure that the Council and the community, I think this is again what we're trying to do is build trust and get correct information. You might remember we said that at the last meeting, that we can't build credibility. We can't build trust unless we have credibility. The Colucci Town report was shared, I think there was a video from our former police chief,

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

but I want to remind people of one very, very important thing.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

Everyone comes up and says that a young woman was assaulted and that we did nothing about it. The young woman who was interviewed in her own words said that she wasn't sure if the physical touch of her body, she was touched on the right buttock if I recall, she says in her own words that she wasn't sure if it was intentional or accidental.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

That's a point that never gets mentioned and yet that information is out there. So again, when we're trying to build trust and credi, you know, trust, we have to be credible and the statements that we make and so i just want to make sure that's there i'll be working with the department and with our city manager's office to go back and to see if we can get that public version of the report that was disclosed so that any new members of our council or any members of the community have the opportunity to read that and understand what truly happened because it's easy to say oh look isn't this terrible our police department assaulted

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

someone and there was no evidence in either the city's report that was done or the independent

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 2

I'm not sure if you can tell us if there was any physical assault.

Benjamin VazquezItem 2

Thank you, City Attorney. My point wasn't those things that you said. My point was that the City Manager took it upon herself to do an investigation to protect the city. And that's, you know, that's your ultimate job and I appreciate your work. I respect your work and I love it that you are here. I know you will always protect the city, but I'm a policy maker and I'm here to be transparent and show the community that we are here to protect the city. truth and I think the truth and all that should be at cost regardless of what comes to us. We

Benjamin VazquezItem 2

should always be transparent to the community so that's where I stand with that kind of policy and I do appreciate your work and your work as well that you are here to serve the city and protect us as a whole and I am a policy maker on the other side but thank you. Okay let me go over

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

here. Captain Becerra as an ad hoc member you have anything you want to add as I move on? So I just want to, as one of the ad hoc members, I do want to bring up the training issue. So as Speaker said earlier, I wrote it down, my notes here, that the training, the comment was you could think like a cop. So you go to this training, you'll think like a cop and it'll change your mindset. Well, I would hope that that's not what the training is. The Citizens Academy that Santa Ana PD has, I'm not an expert on that.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

Chief, can I get one of your officers or somebody to come up and talk about the Citizen Academy or you, sir? I have a couple of questions.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

And I think this is really important because we want our commissioners to be able to do the deep dive into these investigations and be the experts per se right we want them to know the inner workings of the police department because as a commissioner let me give you a personal experience so when I work sex crimes for the county of orange I did not go to the 40 hours of mandated training that the county of orange has I went to 180 hours of fiscal year of sex offender training with the sex crimes unit because it's an area of expertise. So here we have commissioners

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

that are going to investigate and look at complaints and things that are going on within our police department. I would want them to know the inner workings of our police department because it's really critical and it benefits them, right, in my opinion, in my humble opinion. So can you share how long have we had a citizens academy because I've never participated in, and I think I should. How many people? Is there a waiting list? What do they look at? What do they do? Because this was a discussion that we had. And yes, they've had a year of training, and that's wonderful, but they don't understand, in my opinion, they have not...

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

I guess the first question would be, has the commission taken a tour of... Let me start with that question. Has the commission taken a tour as a body through the police department?

Mayor Redekopal, City of !

about i believe it's 13 weeks in length it's one week one day a week on wednesday evenings and what it does it's all encompassing a window into our police department to show how our field operations our frontline policing interacts with the community they have an opportunity to experience and engage with various police officers who they may not normally have the opportunity to engage with unless they have a call for service. It also shows our investigations bureau and how they investigate crime, how all the support units come together, whether it's a crime scene

investigator, whether it's a sexual assault unit, whether it's a homicide unit, whether it's a gang unit, but it's all encompassing our investigation bureau. It also has the administration bureau and And we give various classes an actual practical app on how to, you know, how they do traffic stops, why we do certain things. We put them through a simulator so they can have an understanding of how officers have to make a split-second decision in a small window. And it gives the community members an opportunity to see how we work. But more importantly, it builds a relationship with our community.

It's not just about the technical opportunity for them to learn about our department, but it's the adaptive and the bridging the gap and creating that relationship with our community. Because most people who come through our community police academy leave with a different impression, a better impression of our police department. If it was up to me, we would open it up and have a bigger class. I think our classes are on average about 30, about 35 people or so. There's usually a waiting list. We usually host them. Obviously during COVID they slow down and then depending on operational needs, we usually

host two community academies a year.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

So thank you. And then here it's talking about a ride along, right? Participating in a ride along. And I'm not married to within 90 days. That could be changed. I don't have a problem with that. But why do you believe, and I'm going to ask Jack the same question, why do you think a ride along is so important?

I think a ride along is important to have a better understanding. You know, we can, you know, go through training and the training component and the application of what we do out in an environment where it's not a controlled environment really opens opens people's eyes to see exactly why we do certain things, how we do it, and that not everything we do in training, because what we have in theory may not always work in practice. And applying theory and practice and having a balance of both and understanding of both, it's what makes the entire process more complete.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

Thank you, sir. I really appreciate that. Thank you. So, Jock, my question to you would also be, I know you're a reserve officer, is that correct?

Yes, Mayor.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

And how long have you been a Reserve Officer, sir?

I graduated from the LAPD Reserve Academy in 2021.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

Great, thank you. So do you or have you ever attended or does LAPD have a Community Police Academy?

I actually don't know. Okay. I have not attended it.

I don't know.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

So I'll have to find that out by next question.

Sorry. I can get back to you on that.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

No, that's fine. Thank you, I appreciate it. Ride-alongs, as a reserve officer, have you had community members ride along with you? And how do you feel about ride-alongs, sir?

I haven't had members of the community ride with me personally. When I was an attorney with the Department of Justice and investigating police departments, conducting ride-alongs or engaging in ride-alongs with something we did as a matter of practice. We, as attorneys investigating police departments, felt that it was essential to observe firsthand how officers are interacting with members of the community out in the field. And what can be surprising is law enforcement agencies would do their best to pair us as investigating attorneys

with their quote unquote best officers, and when those officers were disrespectful to members of the community, that says a lot. But it gave me an opportunity to see firsthand how policies, how protocols, how training was affecting these officers and how it was playing out in the field, and I got to witness firsthand some unfortunate encounters, and by that same token, I also would witness encounters where officers did very well and deescalated situations where it was appropriate to do so.

So I think having that firsthand look at how officers are policing the community can be helpful.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 2

Great, thank you very much. Let me go down the line here. Councilman Hernandez.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I wanna thank our city staff or city attorney's office for doing their due diligence and members of the community alike. I want to start by identifying that this is an item that the community fought for. From 2010 to 2020 the city paid out 24.5 million dollars in misconduct lawsuits related to the police department. What is concerning is that this topic of oversight was one that was brought forward by the community although the council had

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

penulosa and phil becerra at one point looked to champion the oversight commission before 2020 and it was unsuccessful it wasn't until 2021 that the conversation was brought back to the city i was elected in 2020 and less than a year being into office my loved one brandon lopez was was murdered by four Anaheim Police Department officers. Those officers, Catalin Panov, Paul Delgado, Brett Heitman, and Kenneth Weber, many of which had officer-involved shootings under their belt already that taxpayers paid for. The community came out shortly after this murder

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

where a Santa Ana police officer alleged that his colleagues, one of their colleagues, lied and ultimately got Brandon shot 22 times. The community began to provide oversight for this department because the department failed to provide oversight to their colleagues. As a policymaker that saw police violence firsthand and knows the brutalities of it, I've also seen my police department do everything that they could to not be transparent about the murder of Brandon and Lopez. What I'm concerned about today is that as a member of the City Council, I was a member of

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

the ad hoc shortly after the shooting. Only one member of this ad hoc that revisited this policy was a policymaker when we passed this ordinance and that was Councilman Becerra. Two of the three members of this ad hoc were not in office when we approved the police oversight ordinance. What constitutes a majority on this ad hoc is two members. Two of the members were not elected into office, Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez and Mayor Valerie Mesqua. I'm going to leave Becerra out of this, but we know Mayor Mesqua has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the POA.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

I am very worried about the conflict of interest that since December 1st of 2024, we have an officer who was alleged of a murder. January 1st of 2025, 30 days later, that same officer is now also being investigated by the Department of Justice for a second shooting where an individual was unarmed. We are seeing police shoot at the public in protests on June 9th with no regard for their safety, no regard for due process.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

They're firing chemical agents. They're firing tear gas. They're firing 44mm beanbags and rubber bullets at the public. In the face of racial profiling where children are being pulled over by community centers, by gang unit, and being stopped and frisked while they're not on probation or parole. Where four gang unit officers are putting their hands into minors' pockets without their consent.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

That is the climate of Santa Ana PD today. A department that we should be proud of unfortunately is riddled with controversy. It is riddled with misconduct lawsuits.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 2

I want to implore my colleagues to protect democracy, to protect the city of Santa Ana, and for us to move our city forward by keeping this ordinance as is. I'll place a motion on the floor to leave this ordinance in place as is without any changes. And that will be the end of my comments. Thank you.

Benjamin VazquezItem 2

I second that motion.

Benjamin VazquezItem 2

Any other speakers? Council Member Phan? Mayor Pro Tem?

Benjamin VazquezItem 2

Say that again.

Thai Viet PhanItem 2

Mayor Pro Tem. Hi. So first of all, thank you so much, Director Morse. Did I just call you that, Director Morse?

Jack is fine.

Thai Viet PhanItem 2

Yeah, we don't, I don't do that. We don't do that. So I have a lot of questions about the requested changes. Some of it I do understand that it It was really just, how do I say this? Some of the enumerated, for example, complaints or categories of complaints were just clean up. So my first question is, there was some conversation about the investigative model or IA doing the investigations whenever any type of complaint is received. Will you please clarify for me, remind me?

Thai Viet PhanItem 2

Is this because it's in our municipal code? Is it police policy or is there a statute in state law requiring that?

Councilmember Fann, I can address that. Penal Code Section 832.5 requires law enforcement agencies to investigate complaints and establish a procedure for doing so. And Santa Ana Police Department Policy 1010 has created the process for investigating complaints. Thank you. So it is both in state law and in policy?

Thai Viet PhanItem 2

Well the state law just says that the city has to create some type of protocol for investigating complaints received by the city, whether it's written, oral, whatever. And the city has a policy, 1010, that has determined that IA will investigate all such complaints, whether received as written, oral, or otherwise. Yes. Okay. And I ask that question because I want to make sure that we differentiate between what is mandated under state law, what is mandated under federal law, and what is city policy, which we are all in control of here, the seven of us.

Thai Viet PhanItem 2

My next question is regarding the dual track investigations. So, Director Morse, you had mentioned the... So first I'd like to say I am not interested in having two back-to-back interviews or interrogations, as you call it, of any type of witness or, excuse me, any officer. I think that would defeat the purpose. You would have probably contradicting comments or responses to different questions. I'm not against the idea of two investigators interviewing an officer at the same time if they're able to have different questions that are independent of each other.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I think when you mentioned Oakland, you said that the IA investigator takes the lead and has to approve questions of the CPRA investigator. Is there anything under state law that mandates that an IA investigator or two investigators who are interviewing an officer must share or have one person directing the

interview? Councilmember, to my knowledge, no. The Oakland structure is something that that they've devised locally. Actually, I don't know why, but but to answer your question, I don't think there's state law that dictates that one investigator, one particular investigator, must lead the interview.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Is there anything under state law that indicates how long an investigation, or excuse me, an interrogation of an officer must be limited to? A reasonable amount of time. So the reasonable amount of time will depend on the complexity of the case or the severity of the complaint? Yes. Okay. And I ask this because I I imagine in Oakland they may have had the dual investigator in an effort to avoid the back-to-back interrogation, but also allow to, I guess, a double track investigation.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I'd like to state that I am apprehensive about the dual track investigation. I think that that is duplicative of a lot of efforts. However, I am interested in looking at how we can ensure that members of the Police Oversight Commission are able to investigate certain complaints that they deem as duly appointed members representing the public are important to the public. And what I mean by that, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't really do much criminal law.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

very very minor misdemeanors so I guess my question is if the police oversight commission receives a complaint say an officer you know used excessive force and let's say they get ten different complaints everything from excessive force to they use a racial epithet to the officer was really rude to me right 10 different complaints that month. Would it be possible for the Police Oversight Commission to select one case that they deem

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

is important, whether it's due to the severity of the case, the policy implications, or the importance of that case to the community, and allow the other nine to go to IA?

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I guess it's kind of like a grand jury type. I mean, the grand jury gets lots of complaints, but they don't investigate every single complaint.

It's certainly possible, council member.

The question would remain, would the oversight agency and IA still investigate simultaneously that one complaint that the oversight commission has opted to investigate? investigate. If the, if City Council goes in that direction, I would set very clear parameters and factors to consider as the Commission is deciding which complaints it will and won't investigate because if two people file complaints and the first person gets their complaint investigated but the second person doesn't, then you could create

a problem where the community doesn't trust the police commission anymore because they may perceive some unfairness and how the commission is going out is going about selecting which complaints they

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

will and won't investigate thank you and that's really helpful right and and maybe we don't limit it to one maybe we limit it to two or categories you know this is a i think an ongoing conversation As to when you said, let's say the POC selects the excessive force case, right? Is there anything under state law that would prohibit IA or the chief, right, from coming in after the completion of the POC investigation in reviewing the investigation and making a determination on his own? Maybe not to enforce any type of discipline, but to see, okay, what can I do?

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

What can we do within the force? So I guess it's kind of an audit model, but of where IA would do that to the POC report. report?

Something to keep in mind, and I know the Council knows this, the investigation and the implementation of discipline must be completed within one year of the date that someone with the authority to investigate that matter learns of that matter. Right.

So if the structure is such that the POC investigates and then the police department reviews that investigation and then discipline is determined from there, I would just be cognizant of that one-year deadline.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Well, I guess what I'm saying is if the POC selects a particular complaint because because of the importance of it to the public as they determine it, does the investigation and then recommends discipline to the chief city manager. Whether it's within a year or not, IA can still review that investigation to determine whether the investigation was done properly, what are some issues, how do we address that within our own department. It might not be specific to that officer, but there's nothing preventing IA from reviewing those, right?

Nothing preventing IA from reviewing those, correct.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Okay. And if IA itself does find some issues with those types of reports or investigations, they can also, I think, independently or make recommendations to the Police Oversight Commission, right?

It's, however, the City Council wants to structure that system.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Okay.

I don't think that there's a state law that dictates, that answers those questions.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. Well, I ask this because I'm not a member of the ad hoc. A lot of the presentation and discussion spoke to changes to making it consistent with POBOR and things like that. And I just want to clarify which provisions are actually required by state law and which are policy decisions, whether it's because of resources, timing, protocols, and things like that. Because ultimately, we have discussions about preventing lawsuits.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

We talk about that all the time. however we had just I think settled like 15 lawsuits and we did not have a police oversight commission so I think that there's a lot of concern in either direction as to what the lawsuits are how did they generate it and what does this mean right and I agree with you that the most important thing with this police oversight commission at least in my mind is creating credibility and trust and not only our police department but also ensuring that our officers And I think that the police officers continue to trust the process that when there is something

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

that is problematic, they too can get a fair day in front of the commission or in an investigation. I think those both are very important.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

My other question is regarding the, well I guess it's not really a question, but I do want to make a comment that I do think the training is important. I think the training, it's not about turning someone into a police officer, but if you are going to choose to criticize someone or make a determination about someone, be in their shoes. I think that's really important. And so if you are going to make a decision about whether someone's use of force was excessive, you also have to know what kind of training they're under because I believe under federal

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

law, some of these determinations are based on what a reasonable police officer would experience or what they would do. In order to do that, you have to have some of that exposure. My other question goes to then, I guess, when you were talking about the investigations and the amount of money, the resources and whatnot. not.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

How, well, I guess, do we know or maybe Chief, how many open complaints do we have as of today or general number? Do we know?

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Or pending complaints, pending investigations?

Good evening. Yes, I won't be able to give you an exact number. I have an idea about how many complaints we receive a year, which is approximately 96. »» 96 in 2024 and today we are at 47.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

»» Okay. That's really helpful. And how many of those do you know are estimate internally generated versus externally generated?

»» Those numbers are just specifically just externally. »» Those are all complaints, yes. »» Okay.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So your team follows through with each of those complaints?

»» Correct.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

»» Okay. I'm sorry. Can you repeat those numbers, please?

96 between 2024 and 47 for year to date this year. Those are external to include not only those that come to the city or through IA, but also from the Police Oversight Commission.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

But they're all externally generated citizen complaints?

That's correct.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. And so I guess I'm trying to figure out, you know, of those 96, and you're saying, you know, one really simple, quote, simple investigation is about 40 hours. That'll probably take you about a month, give or take, right? And then so at best, a year, maybe 12. At best.

Sorry, what's at best, Council?

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Sorry, I guess, you know, if you're saying one a month. at 40 hours a month just for the really simple investigations? At best a year you're probably doing 12?

So a very simple complaint could potentially be investigated in 40 hours, meaning from the date that the investigation begins to the date that the report is completed and handed over. As you know, I'm part-time. Right. So on average, I can work about seven hours a week.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Okay.

So that would obviously have an impact on how quickly I personally could conduct investigations.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So about two months, let's say, per simple investigation. But I imagine with our Police Oversight Commission, they wouldn't, in my mind, select a simple case. a very simple case. It would be a complicated case, and that's the kind of thing I think would be important for them to look at. So what you're really looking at is maybe one big case a year, realistically, right?

OK.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I just want to make sure. I'm just saying. Sorry.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

What I'm saying is that within the realm of probability, probability if they select a complicated case once a year you're probably doing one big investigation a year

Yes, I could Accommodate one big investigation per year with the current structure in rights

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I believe what the current structure the current funding as well as attending police oversight Commission meetings Potentially policy changes and that kind of stuff, right?

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

I just want to also mention though that the agreement that we entered into at the direction of the City Council and approved by the City Council does provide for additional staffing. So I think Mr. Morris is being very upfront with you to say, based on the model that you have put forward with him, this is what he could do. If the Council potentially were to double or triple that contract, there might be ways for him, I'm saying probably use other resources within his firm. There are other experts there, but yes. So I just want to make it clear that it is really a Council decision, allocation of resources, and budget issues.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I wanted to clarify so that we can understand clearly at this time, based on the budget that we have approved and the contract that we have, what is realistic for us to do. I don't want members of the public to think that 47 investigations are going to be happening right now by the Police Oversight Commission, who's meeting once a month with a part-time oversight director, with one investigator who is the oversight director, who is also going to be staffing the meetings and things like that. I want us to be in the realm of reality in talking about what we can do.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So thank you. You guys can sit down.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Actually, I have a question for them based on your question, so don't go far.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Okay, never mind. Oh, okay. And then I guess... I'm sorry, I've gone over time, but I have a lot of questions because I wasn't part of the ad hoc.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

My other... Oh no, I feel like I lost my train of thought. Okay.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Well, I guess maybe just come back to me now.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

I will, because you're over your time. Thank you. Councilman Becerra wants to talk. Thank you, Director Morse. So I just have a quick question, Chief, for Commander Lopez-Hewitt. So you had indicated there's, because we're talking about the length of time for investigations, right, to complete them, 96 in 2024 complaints, and then today, this year, 2025, we're at 47. And those are citizen complaints. Correct, yes, I understand that, and thank you. And how long does it take, for example, let's say it's just a hypothetical. I call in and I say a policeman used a bad word at me and I

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

found very disrespected. You're gonna investigate that. How long does that take?

How long would it hypothetically take? Hypothetically if it's a complaint of you know profanity and it only involves like Mr. Moore said it only involves one officer or one witness or something like that it can take probably about 30 days or so to do the investigation because the inspectors have aside from citizen complaints internal complaints and we also have civil and tort claims that they have to investigate then the review process also takes an additional time if the complaint is sustained and there's a recommendation from position

of discipline the commander the deputy chief and then eventually I'm the final decision maker at the PD level in regards to the discipline. So you're looking about 90 days.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

90 days. And so Chief, you worked in IA, correct?

That's correct.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

And so when the complaints come in, you have to notify the officer, is that correct? There's a process.

There's a process, yes. And usually when a complaint comes in, obviously, we notify the officer when we're going to do the interview and it's called notification of an interview. But what we normally do is we gather all the facts and evidence that we can, leading up to what to prepare for the interview interview witnesses community members or whatnot once we interview all witnesses then we start strategizing on which officers are involved which ones are not involved reviewing BWC then we'll start the interview process and serving notifications of interviews for the officers in relation to the complaint and based on what type of

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

complaint you're investigating sometimes officers are left on duty taken off duty placed somewhere else, sent home. Is that, could you give an example or could you share that please?

Yes, that is correct. Depending on the type of violation, officers can either be placed on administrative leave or also depending if the violation has a criminal component to it or a potential criminal component to it, it is submitted to the district attorney's office and then we'll toll our investigation because one thing is that a criminal complaint will have presidents over an administrative complaint. So we'll have the district attorney's office do a criminal complaint review for any potential criminal liability on the acts of the officer. Once we find out a determination from the district attorney's office,

then we'll proceed with our investigation.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

So you have to wait for the district attorney's office?

It's, we do wait. We can make some exceptions. as long as we don't compromise the criminal investigation.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

And an officer involved shooting, it goes to the Attorney General?

It depends on the circumstances of the...

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Could you explain that please?

Yes, so typically in an officer involved shooting where an individual who is armed is involved with one of our officers, officers, that involves three separate concurrent investigations. One of them is done by the District Attorney's Office and they look for any criminal culpability on the actions of our officers. Then we have our homicide team. They review, they do an investigation to see any criminal culpability on the acts of the perpetrator who had the weapon or firearm or whatever the case may be.

And then internal affairs does an internal investigation for any potential policy violations or address any issues regarding, they may not necessarily be misconduct, but maybe we have to address some training issues, some de-escalation, or anything regarding internal policies. policies. The reason three concurrent investigations work in an officer-involved shooting is because Internal Affairs is the only one through the administrative process that can obtain a statement from an officer-involved shooting. During the District Attorney's investigation or even during the homicide investigation, an officer has a right to the

Fifth Amendment and doesn't have to provide a statement. In cases where there's an officer-involved shooting when there's no weapon involved and in results in death I believe it was AB 1506 and those are the ones that are investigated by the Department of Justice do you cover this in

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

the Citizens Academy yes thank you chief that's all the question I have thank you so Jack I have a question for you and then I'll go over to council member you talked about the three different types of oversight right the audit the review and the investigative is that correct of the bodies, right? There's three different models.

Well, Mayor, I mentioned the investigatory model, the auditing model, and then there's also a hybrid.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

A hybrid model, okay, my apologies. So can you just share which model exposes city to more liability than others? Is there a particular model that exposes the city to more liability than, let's just say the hybrid or the auditor, the review, which one?

Mayor, I'm not aware of any data that would answer that question.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

You have no data?

Not to answer that question. I've done no research to assess which model results in more significant liability for a given municipality.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Okay, and I know we use the Oakland model. I've heard it, I've been sitting here, it's my third year, and Oakland model's come up a couple times and I try not to use the Oakland model only because I think they're on the third or fourth chief now of police and they've been through a lot yes they've been through a lot and the CHP works there too and a lot of other things you know that have been going on in Oakland so I I'd like Santa Ana to be way better than Oakland so do a better job I think we all do so but you see that in the order it's current ordinance there's a confidentiality clause

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

clause. Can you tell me your opinion about that? Committee members that sit on the commission having to sign a confidentiality clause? What are your thoughts about that?

Well, as you know, certain officer personnel records are confidential. When I was with the OIR in Orange County, we could access those confidential records. We couldn't make them public but we at the oversight entity could could access those records and and analyze them and make recommendations now if we released any public information it had to be carefully redacted or or only provided in confidence to the Board of Supervisors so I'm not sure if I'm

answering your question but but but but but that's the importance of the the confidential aspect and as has been discussed, Penal Code 832.7 dictates which officer personnel records can be made public in response to a PRA request.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

And that's what we discussed in the ad hoc, the A, the can be, and then there's additional two, I believe Tamara, we had discussed those cases.

There are eight categories of records that the legislature has deemed to be subject to disclosure under the Public Records Act, yes.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Can you share those?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. They're actually in our ordinance. And they are officer-involved shootings that result in death. Use of force that results in great bodily injury. Sustained findings of dishonesty, sexual assault, unlawful arrest or unlawful search, unreasonable or excessive force. Failure to intervene against another officer using force that is clearly unreasonable or excessive. And then our ordinance includes two additional categories that are not articulated in 832.7 as being disclosable and those are in custody deaths and unlawful activities, conduct that interferes with First Amendment assemblies.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

»» And can you share why we added those?

»» Those are policy decisions by the ad hoc and of course ultimately by this Council. But they are not in SB 1421, 832.7.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

»» Great. Thank you very much. Council Member Serra.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Mayor Redekopal, Mayor, thank you, Madam Mayor. So first and foremost, I want to thank the city attorney for what she said earlier, where, you know, we have to provide factual information. We can't grow trust if we're going to provide misinformation. So I just want to start off by just kind of laying some, what I would say are foundational aspects here. So first, the staff report states, on April 4th, 2025, implementation of the existing ordinance revealed a conflict with the Public Safety Officers Procedural Bill of Rights Act, POBAR, California Government Code Sections 3300 through 3313.

Phil BacerraItem 4

So I'd like to understand what that conflict was.

The conflict between Government Code 3303?

Phil BacerraItem 4

Well, basically, according to the staff report saying on April 4th specifically, implementation of this ordinance revealed a conflict with Pobar. So I just want to understand what was that moment, that epiphany that we said, uh-oh, we better talk to the council about convening an ad hoc.

I think Mr. Morse addressed the dual investigations could run afoul of the Police Officer Bill of Rights as it relates to officers who are interviewed either twice or by more than one interrogator. 3303 sets forth all of the rights that officers are entitled to and so if there are is a dual track investigation it could run afoul of that

Phil BacerraItem 4

and create potential conflicts and problems. Okay so on April 4th 2025 what you just described was revealed and so that was what spurred this whole process that's led us here tonight is that fair to say? That is what the staff report

and again, the government code section 3303 sets forth the police officer bill of rights and what officers are entitled to during an internal affairs investigation.

Phil BacerraItem 4

I'm reading the staff report and I understand that's what it says. But I'm just so that we're all on the same page and understand. Because I guess what really is frustrating here is that when I hear folks come to the podium and say that, you know, this is all a big conspiracy by the POA and by the mayor and buy all these things, it's false. What you're saying is absolutely false because I can at least say for myself I've had no communication from the POA on any aspect of this ordinance. None. Not one bit. Nothing that they've said, well I would like to see this or change that. Not a bit of it. But yet we do hear

Phil BacerraItem 4

some folks say that that's what it is. It's all about, you know, support from the Police Officers Association. You got to put that boogeyman to bed. Just got to. It's it's it's you're beating a dead horse. But with that being said though so it's important to understand that this was something that our staff saw potential concerns with. And can I just clarify because I just want to address

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

these these issues head-on. Someone might say well gosh staff didn't what what took you so long? Like right you drafted the ordinance what took you so long? And and i will tell you having been very involved with drafting this ordinance let me try to use that one yeah i'm not going to use this one anymore i'm having been very involved in drafting that ordinance quite frankly i think what it was is the change over in staff and the opportunity to really work closely as a team to decide how we were going to implement the ordinance

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

the when you were when the other ordinance when the original ordinance was prepared

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

I THINK IT WAS INTENTIONAL FROM THAT CITY MANAGER SAYING THAT THEY WANTED TO CONTROL THE PROCESS. I THINK GOING TO MAYOR PROTEM'S COMMENT, HE MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THAT CITY MANAGER DECIDED TO DO AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF AN IA, WHICH IS MAYBE A LITTLE UNUSUAL. RIGHT? I THINK THERE WERE PRACTICES. EVERY CITY MANAGER HAS A DIFFERENT STYLE. SO THE ORDINANCE WAS, EVEN THOUGH I WAS WORKING ON THE ORDINANCE, I'M NOT A POLICE EXPERT PER SE. WHEN WE SAT DOWN AND WE HAD PEOPLE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT working together collaboratively from the department to say how is this going to actually

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

work like dissect it that's when some of these issues arose because we were getting the input of those who knew they were experts in the area in ia not me well and i appreciate you saying that

Phil BacerraItem 4

ma'am city attorney but i think one thing that you're also leaving out is the fact because as was already stated up here councilmember panelosa and myself brought this item forward while i appreciate there's a lot of advocacy from the community the agendizing of the police oversight site commission the one that we're discussing here tonight was brought forth by myself and councilman panaloza now i know that that may be very inconvenient for the narrative you want to spin i know it and i and that's just got to suck doesn't it but the fact is it was brought forward

Phil BacerraItem 4

we went through a process former mayor sarmiento convened an ad hoc so that we can discuss this and that's why i don't envy you madam city attorney because we were having a productive of ad hoc in my humble opinion councilmember Hernandez um councilmember Lopez she's not here tonight um the three of us and we went through and we had some god-awful painful discussions but but I say that out of respect because this is not an easy topic to discuss there's a lot of things that really just were a lot of arm wrestling matches not in bad ways I mean I never truthfully

Phil BacerraItem 4

I don't think I ever left our ad hocs thinking oh my god this is this is awful it was just one of of those things where we really just had to grind this out. This is a very difficult subject matter. Having said that, though, what was frustrating was, and you know, you've got election calendars, unfortunately, so all of a sudden the ad hoc at that time was cut short. So I appreciate, Mayor Mesk, that you didn't cut this one short and that we grinded it out because, Mayor Pro Tem, you and I, we had a lot of meetings and we had a lot of discussions. former mayor Sarmiento cut our short cut it short said Madam City Attorney better

Phil BacerraItem 4

put something together here's you know whatever I only know what groups you had to somehow figure out how to mesh it all together and put something there so I don't lay this at your feet and yes obviously as we had to get things going you start to figure out hey maybe there were certain components that didn't make sense but with that being said here we were today now we've discovered apparently the magic date was April 4th 2025 you know the light bulbs went off and we said oh we need to look at this so this came back to the council the mayor convened the ad hoc we had lengthy discussion so I want to make clear to

Phil BacerraItem 4

everybody you know even from the beginning when we were discussing this back in 2020 I've always thought that the auditor monitor model was the way to go because I looked at Anaheim which I thought did not do enough and I looked at other cities and I appreciate our our new oversight director for calling out um some of the potential issues with some of those more intense models and so I've always felt that the auditor monitor auditor monitor model uh was the way to go and what I appreciate about what our our new director said tonight and I think this is important for the community to to really kind of understand

Phil BacerraItem 4

understand. What do you believe the intention is? I will tell you for me, my intention has always been for improving the police department, for improving transparency, and for building trust. That was it. To make the department better, not to defund it, not to abolish it, not to rip it apart. It was to improve it. It was always to improve it. And so when Director Director Moore said that when you have the investigator model versus the auditor model, the auditor model looks more at the overall foundational policies and what can we do to improve the department so that it functions better. I like what you said.

Phil BacerraItem 4

You know, when you go on a ride along and if you have an officer that's supposed to be one of the better ones because the chief wants to tee you up to have the good guy to show off and then something goes wrong, you start to go, oh, there might be something more systemic here. And at that point, just like when something comes to this council, what happens? Staff says there's a problem, or council members say there's a problem, or the community says there's a problem. We try to address it from up here, from a policy perspective.

Phil BacerraItem 4

The Police Oversight Commission was always meant to be something that would review and bring back recommendations to the city manager, who is the council's employee. Not the oversight director. It can't. The Charter does not allow for that. There are three employees, for those of you paying attention at home, there are three employees of the Council via the Charter. Manager, clerk, and attorney. It's not oversight director and the oversight commission is not the hiring and firing committee. That goes to our city manager. The Council does not hire and fire anybody other than the clerk, manager, and attorney. That's it.

Phil BacerraItem 4

So, I would recommend looking at the charter to understand what we can and cannot do up here.

Phil BacerraItem 4

So, I guess when I look at what was brought to us, and I think that was described earlier by Sonia and Tamara, it wasn't like the council or the ad hoc came forward and said, you know, I was at home over the weekend, I started looking at POBAR and I thought, huh, this is what I'd like to do to the ordinance, right? I mean, did the council, I just want you to repeat this because I know you already said it, but I want you to repeat it for those in the back of the room. Do you, or did you ever experience a time where any member of the ad hoc came to you and said, here's what I'm proposing, separate from anything that you brought to us.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Did we ever bring something to you to say, this is what we need to change or want to change?

Well, obviously I can't disclose any attorney-client privileged communications. However, what I will say is the recommendations came from staff.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Okay. Okay, so and I think earlier you hinted at kind of where I was going with this and that is these were things that thanks to the experience of our staff, our expert staff, you provided us with policy questions. Should we go this way or not? These are things that could potentially lead us into situations where like LA County, not to go down what LA County is going through right now, but they've seen their oversight commission paralyzed. And I don't want to see that here. I want to see it be successful. I want to see now that we've got our oversight director in place and

Phil BacerraItem 4

Hopefully if we can make the appropriate amendments tonight to make sure that this thing is successful So I just you know for us today. We've got to make sure that That what we bring forward today, or I'm sorry not bring forward what we potentially approved today helps us stay out of liable Situations right we've got to minimize the liability but at the same time make sure that we are upholding what the intent of the Commission is and let me state again for myself it was never to be the hire and fire committee this was not meant to be to go after officers we hear dialogue up

Phil BacerraItem 4

here about going after officers which is I think very inappropriate I think it creates a very hostile work environment especially when I hear people talk about due process is it only due process except unless you're a police officer is it sounds like you said yes again so the point is is that that shouldn't be the case that should not be the case but again coming back to this item tonight I want to thank staff for bringing this forward I want to thank the mayor for creating the ad hoc and I want to thank mayor Pro Tem for your participation in it as well and I just want to make it absolutely clear that what we're

Phil BacerraItem 4

discussing tonight is not something brought about by some sinister, mysterious political movement. It's something that I think because our staff thought that we needed to evaluate this, this is a good time to do it. And to say that it's because of the oversight director being brought on board, I see it as just perfect timing to make sure that he hits the ground running. One last thing I want to say, and I'll hand the mic off here, and that is one thing that was discussed in the ad hoc, I won't go into the details among who said what and where,

Phil BacerraItem 4

But the idea of training, the idea of going to the Citizens Academy or a third-party entity, you know, it fascinates me. So people want to be on the oversight committee, right, or the commission, but there's concern that, God forbid, that they may actually know the department that they're providing oversight on, like as if that's something offensive. Oh my God, you mean I actually have to know what this department does before I get to wag my finger and say they're bad no no that's not if that's what all you want to do is come in and slash and burn that's not the intention of this Oversight Commission that's not

Phil BacerraItem 4

it if you believe that we have some problem officers great then the Commission should be a place where we look at policy so that we can prevent officers from doing bad things that's what it should be for but to come in and say oh my god I have to have training like that's such an offensive thing to be trained to understand what this department does the department does some amazing things and we have many good officers but again oversight was always meant to be something that furthered that like in other words make sure that people understood that they had confidence in their police department

Phil BacerraItem 4

but if you're not even willing to just learn about it to do the training I mean that says a lot and it's not a lot of good so I hope that my colleagues will support the the amount of training that we wanted to see our commissioners go through in here because I want to make sure that whatever review and oversight that's provided is done from a place where people can say I took the time to understand it I may not agree with everything that the PD provides in their academy or or wherever they get their training but at least take the time to listen take the time to to try to learn and understand. You don't have to agree with it.

Phil BacerraItem 4

There's nothing in here that says, and upon completion of training, you must agree with it. It just says do the training. Just go in with an open mind and listen. So I hope my colleagues will support that being a part of the amendments, hopefully that we approve tonight. Thank you.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Thank you. Before I call on somebody else, you mentioned something, Council Member Becerra, about the city manager. And for those who have not read the staff report here, I wanna read something that's very important. San Ana operates under a city manager form of government. Let me say that again. San Ana operates under a city manager form of government. As established by the city charter, the original language of the ordinance granted the independent police oversight director authority that conflicted with the city manager's administrative oversight responsibilities and has been revised.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

the amended language now affirms the oversight directors advisory and independent role while maintaining alignment with the city manager's executive authority as defined by the charter. Thank you, Councilman Becerra for bringing that. Mayor Pro Tem.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

Thank you so much. Thank you for all those conversation we're having. having, it's very intricate information we're getting today. When I was brought to this committee, I was told that the changes are based on litigation by the L.S. Sheriff Department where there is still no judgment. So when we reference Pobar, are we referencing this case that might change that hasn't been litigated, completed litigation yet?

not the case itself but the legal implications that could result right so that's the the may

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

and the can we we might those are all the we're not there yet the the the case is not done yet

so i haven't tracked the case but um we staff identified certain legal issues thank you so

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

it is based on a case where there's still no there is no judgment and we have not seen the end of it So this being very intricate and very delicate, I don't think we're gonna win over 50% of the public's not gonna trust the police or the other 50% is not gonna trust the police oversight, not the police, the police oversight commission. So I call on delay of adoption of this ordinance and direct the staff to return in 60 days with the revised version developed in partnership partnership with the Police Oversight Commission, the Police Oversight Director, city and staff and community stakeholders in an open forum.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

And then we could all have transparency and we see how we move.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

So thank you for that. And the only reason I would not agree with that is because there's a couple things that I have questions about. So first question, Madam City city attorney or Mr. City Manager. Several times people have come up here and said we had meetings with city council members and city staff to put the other ordinance together. We had meetings, we had meetings. Well I don't know who they had meetings with because I've asked where is the proof of the meetings, the community meetings, the meetings with council members. So I think it would be a

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

violation of the Brad Act if they met with ad hoc committee meetings so Madam City Attorney

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

you were here were there meetings that you're aware of now um I vaguely recall that yes I did have some meetings but it was not I was not meeting with the elected officials um I took a courtesy meeting once the city council and I want to thank Councilmember Becerra because he brought back a recollection that we were working with a separate ad hoc committee but once the The ordinance was kind of put on this fast track. In my effort to ensure that we were gonna get there without exposing the city to huge mistakes, I did meet with a group of attorneys and representatives to better understand, to explain to them, in my opinion,

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

why I absolutely said we could not adopt the Oakland model. Because again, the Oakland model, as described here this evening, was also one approved by a city charter amendment. And so I do recall meeting with some members of the community. I don't recall, I have some recollection that maybe Council Member Lopez was in that meeting, but I don't want to say that for certain. I know I met with the community members at that point, and there were some lawyers in the room when we talked about the Oakland model.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

So there was only one council person in the meeting with you?

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Yes, there was no Brown Act issues whatsoever.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

The mayor wasn't there and any other council member? It was just one council member with you and a few community members.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Yes, I'd go back, check my calendar just to make absolutely sure, but I never went outside of City Hall to meet with community members and we didn't have any Public Brown Act meetings on the topic. We did not

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Okay, so I See where mayor Pro Tem is going

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

My only concern about bringing in the committee members is that when we have Committee members that at a time when Santa and PD was called for mutual aid and they assisted with mutual aid you had two community members two committee members who sit on this police oversight committee sending on their social media and publicly telling people come and file your complaint with us come file a complaint against Santa Ana PD come file your complaint and so Madam City Attorney correct me if I'm wrong if I believe there was a discussion about are

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Are you a committee member of the police oversight or are you an activist looking to, I'm going to say, go after our police department because they provided mutual aid in the city of Irvine?

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Yeah, I mean, I think we, and in fact, I might allow our assistant city attorney to address that issue because I know that he sent an email to the commissioners on that subject. Thank you.

Yes, thank you for the question, Mayor. So following that incident a legal memorandum was prepared by me and it was circulated to all the commissioners reminding them again as to the fact that they are sitting on a commission in which they will be reviewing and at that time investigating complaints into officer misconduct. and that there was an importance of impartiality and a non-biased posture that the commissioners needed to maintain with regard to their handling of those complaints and of those investigations. And thank you for

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

clarifying that because I know that if I was going to be interviewed by this police oversight committee and I was I was an officer immediately I would be like I'm not even speaking to you because your minds already made up and you're out there asking people to file formal complaints against me. So again, that is why I support the training, I support the ride-along, I support the confidentiality. It's like closed session. Sometimes our closed session information gets out, we don't know how, but it does. And it's a big deal. It's a very big

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

big deal and so for them to sign confidentiality forms saying you know you will be removed from the committee or even you know charged with a misdemeanor offense whatever it may be I support that because yes it's their police officers but it's not a gotcha it should never be a gotcha it should be in council member fan talked about it like there's something that we see how do we change it, how do we improve it, how do we fix it. I think Jack you also covered that and we have in the staff report this is really what it's about. You know community trust, transparency, but because the people that come here

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

and and and speak and I appreciate all of them, there's three hundred and ten thousand people in the city of Santa Ana. Three hundred and ten thousand and that's not even correct because there's more. And when we do a budget and we ask them what are their top priorities. The two top priorities that the people who submit say public safety and homelessness. And so I know you hear Jack and I and I'm sorry that the last two meetings you've come here you've heard all this you say this distrust which there is among certain people in our community but as a whole I think once you're here for a while you get out and

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

meet other people in our community you will learn that there are people in our community who support our police officers we have many of our officers who grew up here in Santa Ana born and raised here their families are here so it's home to them so yes I appreciate people come in and and make comments whether they're false or not they still come take the time to come to a council meeting they're engaged and I appreciate that even when they call me out I appreciate it I got elected to sit here and listen to it but I think when we talk about a police oversight and I do like Mayor Pro Tem's recommendation about including the

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

committee I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend taking it to an open forum because I don't want it to become a hostile work environment for our officers either because that's what we see that's who will show up it'll be the majority of the people who want to complain and talk about how bad our officers are because they hear so many things or they they think they know the the truth you know like the mayor created this ad hoc to make changes because I'm bought and paid for by the POA actually as city man city attorney made it very clear and thank you madam

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

city attorney no I did not call for this ad hoc but I would ask I'll agree if you want to amend it to say we take it back and we come back in 60 to 90 days and we include the committee but I don't I wouldn't prefer the community I would just say the committee if madam city attorney or Tamara is Is that legal or, can we do that?

Absolutely.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Would you like to amend your recommendation? And so I'll second his motion to bring it back and include the committee with the ad hoc and city staff so that we can be transparent. I see you looking at me, Council President.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Well, I just, I do, Mayor, if I just wanna make sure that you understand that if you're meeting with the commission, I keep using the wrong microphone. Yeah, share with me about it, because I'm used to being on the committee. But if you do use the commission and that is a policy decision if you feel like that's the best way to develop this policy I fully support it. Just remember if you're meeting with the Commission It will be Brown Act meeting and we open to the public and so they'll have to be public comment And I'm okay with it being open to the public. Yes, it would be

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

I'm not trying to hide anything. I think it would be it would be great to And I always love the comments for the audience because you know, they only want to hear what they want to hear here. You know, we open it up to the public, and we can have it at the police community room, where we all sit at the table. Because here you cannot, right? But the police community room, you can, unless you know of another room where they don't say, well, it's the police department, so we don't want to go there. But I would support a motion to bring it back in 60 to 90 days. I know right now, Mr. City Manager, we've got a lot going on.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

And it gives Jack time as well to get get to know the lay of the land in Santa Ana. Again, welcome to the last two meetings. I'm sure they're very interesting to you. And that we come back with some recommendations, but the one thing I will not yield to is the training. I just wanna make it really clear because you can't analyze and take a position and give recommendations on something you know nothing about. If all you know is what you read on social media or what you see or what you think you saw or that two minute video or two

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

second video or whatever it may be but if you go into this Academy and you learn how the inner workings nobody's gonna change you and tell you to become police officer but it will educate you and education is very powerful when we're analyzing cases so I am NOT an attorney but you go through a lot of education is that correct councilmember fan to become an attorney yes and we have to do uh and amount of continuing legal education it comes with a lot of training right so um you know they're going to be analyzing cases they're going to be researching them and they're going to make

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

a recommendation with jack and i'm sure jack you have lots of training as well um so if you want to amend your motion i will support it and then we'll go on to the other comments and see if we we can move on from this item.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

In my motion including the oversight director?

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

That's correct.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

Okay.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Yes, of course. I was saying, you didn't say it.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

So I am in my motion.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

We'll take up Jack's seven hours that day, okay?

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

And if we could keep it at City Hall somewhere just so everybody.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

Well, I don't know if there's a room

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

other than the first floor.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 4

I don't know if there's a room available to do that.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So we can do it at the City Council Chambers, but just to clarify, and I think the city, We will do whatever you as the policy makers want us to do.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So, you know, I think we got the appointment in August. That will be a year of appointment with the city manager.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

One of the things that we heard as part of the direction of the city council was to make sure we get the oversight director.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

We got him.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

then work in the ordinance that starts to work. And it goes more to the points in the discussion, and I'm just making a general comment how it's being discussed. Right, what the LA issue, what was not being completed, illustrated was the challenges. The challenges that the city attorney mentioned two, three years ago when it got approved, and one of the premises why we introduced this policy amendments today, right. What you saw and what you're seeing here is this level of collaboration between the City Manager's Office, the City Attorney's Office, obviously the Director within two

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

weeks of being hired, and of course the Police Department. This is what we try to present today, a policy that tries to address not just confidence within the public, not just confidence within the Commission, confidence with the City Council, and confidence within the Police Department. This is the community per se that we're looking at to make sure we're all respectful of. This is the key component. That's what we're trying to get at. So any amendment changes is exactly to that capacity. To meet the intended spirit, stay within the charter confines and parameters, and still do the work that we need to do. That starts our aspects.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So to that end, we can have the meeting at city council chambers, right? And then show that we understand clearly is the ad hoc committee or the whole city council, just to actually clarify the motion, and to with the commission or a representative ad hoc of the commission, just so we clear, so we know what to work with.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

Mayor Redekopal, The ad hoc tie?

Phil BacerraItem 4

Give me a look. Mayor Redekopal, What is the motion? I don't even understand the full motion. I'm sorry.

Benjamin VazquezItem 4

Go ahead. My motion initially was to send it back to the commission and the oversight director and community. The mayor wants to bring in the ad hoc committee as well to revise it and bring it back as in 90 days, 60 days I said. Sixty days and bring it back. So it could be more flushed out where community input is also part of the process.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Mayor if I just may request. Yeah, go ahead. You know there's an old phrase, lead, follow, or get out of the way. So we convened an ad hoc. We had numerous meetings as an ad hoc, right? This item was agendized at our last council meeting and before that it was available to the public a week in advance, a full week in advance. So you had one week, the meeting, the item got punted, you had another week, and then here we are today I would argue because we had probably about an hour and a half worth of testimony we had community input in fact not only do we have just the community input I mean we have some folks in the audience from

Phil BacerraItem 4

Irvine but we also had actual oversight committee members show up and give their two cents tonight so I'm not sure what else you're looking for I think at this point you just need to spit out if you don't like something in the ordinance you want to change it go ahead and say it and I think that's what we're here to do tonight that's the buck stops on this dice in the city of Santa Ana we need to find out we need to figure out what we want to do to move forward it could be to do nothing it could be to do something but it should be here we've again I want there to be input and that was satisfied because it's been

Phil BacerraItem 4

out there for a long period of time now if this was just something that was an emergency item and and nobody saw it and everybody had to scramble, I would completely agree with you, Mayor Pro Tem. And I would say, yeah, no, no, no, let's slow this down. Let's make sure that everybody has a chance to digest what's being proposed and provide their input. But they've had that chance, we've had that chance. So at some point, we need to just say, we're gonna do this or we're not, or we're gonna do this, but maybe with some changes. So with all due respect, I would, well, at this point, no, I won't, but I'm just,

Phil BacerraItem 4

as far as what you guys were discussing, as far as bringing it back to somebody else to do something else i would say at this point i think it should be something that it's on our dice tonight let's have the discussion if we want to continue it that's fine but to go back to another committee and comprise of x y and z i i think it's been out there long enough for folks to digest it they provided their input tonight i think we now need to fulfill our responsibility

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 4

and make decisions here thank you councilmember hernandez thank you madam mayor um just wanted to share or ask a question to our chief of police we were talking about um complaints against our officers chief could you give me an idea of the percentage of the complaints sustained against the police officers you guys said 96 complaints in 2024 what what is the amount sustained i don't

have those numbers with me but uh understanding having 96 or 94 that doesn't mean we completed 96 or 94 of those investigations for that year because there's a lot of things that can delay and investigation. So the numbers that we report, we have to report to DOJ. Those numbers are not all encompassing of those 96 complaints. They're the complaints that we've sustained or unfounded or not sustained or exonerated thus far at the point in time when we report to DOJ.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 4

Thank you, Chief. Part of my concern as to why I think we need to have oversight on our department that is independent of your department is because every council meeting I ask your department a question. For instance, related to June 9th, I asked you how many shots were fired at the public, how many tear gas rounds. I still haven't gotten that response, sir.

And that is correct, Councilmember. We have a 60-day requirement that we have to report out to DOJ, and we're still trying to decipher because we weren't the only agency present. Not only was it our mutual aid partners, but it was also federal agencies that we were not responsible for. We do have to provide a report to DOJ within 60 days, and when that's ready, you will have your answer then.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 4

Thank you, Chief. I wanted to share that on the record because I'm looking at Policescorecard.org, which is a nonprofit organization, and it shows that since 2013 to 2023, we've had over 20 police killings in Santa Ana, 268 civilian complaints of police misconduct. Do you have an idea of the percentage that were sustained, Police Chief? No, I do not. three percent of complaints sustained between 2016 to 2022. that is precisely why uh chief i wanted to put this on the record because i respect our city i respect our department but i think that's where

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 4

the morale is is struggling um between the public i want to be frank and honest when i say this part of why my stance on accountability is so strong is because residents do not trust our department i see the emails i see their concerns when they say hey i want to call you know the police related to xyz but we don't get responses or we don't get officers that come back to our property or they're not treating us with respect or what have you but i just wanted to put it on the record chief because i think that this is part of why the independent oversight is so critical to

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 4

the city and it's why jack morris is going to play such an important role in in maintaining the independence because we are truly trying to build a bridge and establish trust and it isn't rooted in any feelings that are anti-police these routings are filled in these routings i mean these feelings are rooted in equity they're rooted in justice they're rooted in representation they're rooted in law and order and that's what people want and so I just want to say I thank my colleagues for today's dialogue and I'll be supporting the motion on the floor and I'm looking forward to this coming back in 60 days

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank You chief Councilmember Fann yes to continue on with my questions director Morris is there anything in state law that prohibits the police oversight commission from being both an auditing and an investigative body? No. Thank you. So this, the conversation we've been having about being an auditing body or auditing model, an audit model versus an investigative model, that dichotomy doesn't have to exist. You could do both subject to resources, correct?

Correct. As I mentioned, there's a hybrid model that's in place in San Diego. Right.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

When we spoke earlier, I believe it was Council Member Becerra asked a question of Attorney Boghossian that some of the changes to the ordinance was because of this concern regarding Pobar's one year, I guess, kind of statute of limitations, right?

There was that concern flagged, yes.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Right. But that concern is more to do with sometimes investigations can take quite a long time and we don't want back-to-back investigations that take longer than a year, but then we can't actually, you know, enforce any discipline. Correct. If the one year is passed, you cannot impose discipline. Right.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

But that's an issue of process. process, the change is in an effort to make the process simpler and less likely to violate that one-year statute of limitations. But it's not that we will for sure violate that one-year statute of limitations. Right, right.

It's to avoid that and to avoid any kind of conflict or any kind of confusion.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Right. And such, we can also avoid such statute of limitations by, for example, limiting, well, if you only had a place oversight investigation and not the IA with the recommendations of discipline, right, that could be an alternative, right, to ensure that we would not violate the one-year statute of limitations.

If there were processes and as Mr. Moore said, protocols in place to ensure compliance with POBAR.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Great, thank you. Question regarding Pobar, you know, there are a lot of comments and, you know, when it comes to any type of misconduct by any employee who has vested rights in their job, it's very important that we follow due process investigations because, again, their their jobs are protected under both state and federal law. What happens if Pobar is violated? Say an investigation was improper or an officer was fired without a completed investigation?

Great question, Councilmember. There's two potential remedies available to the officer. Obviously if discipline is imposed in violation of Pobar, they can file an administrative appeal and that goes through the appeal process.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So let's say the city or the Police Oversight Commission, IA, et cetera, right, going through this process investigates, but let's say someone gets fired without a proper investigation, right, doesn't get completed or for some reason, public pressure.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

They get fired. They get fired. can sue the city or appeal, right? »» Correct. »» Can they get reinstated?

»» Oh, absolutely. Of course. If it goes through the appellate process, the administrative appeal process and ultimately goes on a written mandate to the court, the Superior Court can reverse the discipline imposed and reinstate the officer. And then that would also implicate back pay and wages that were lost during that.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

»» I was going to say, do they get attorney's fees?

»» Potentially. It just depends if it's statutorily permitted based on the causes of action that they bring.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

»» Thank you. So I just want to make sure that when we're talking about these processes for investigating alleged misconduct, the reason why we want to ensure that we go through a thorough investigation that complies with POBAR despite any type of photographic, videographic, or other statements that may implicate an officer, ensuring that we do a completed investigation ensures that we hold any officer who may have actually violated the law

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

accountable so that they cannot then sue the city to reverse a firing, get reinstated, get back pay, and get attorneys fees, correct? Absolutely. We

want to ensure a robust process that complies with the law and due process

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So if the city decides to fire an officer because of public pressure in violation of Pobar, the city would be forced potentially to reinstate these officers who may have actually done something in violation of the law.

Yes. That's right.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

You said yes? I said yes. Thank you. I appreciate it. So I just wanted to clarify because this process of ensuring our investigations are thorough ensures that our officers protect their due process rights under Pobar, but also ensures that we hold officers who did something wrong accountable so that they cannot be reinstated because of a technicality under state or federal law. I do not want an officer who has in fact done something wrong to be able to be reinstated into the Santa Ana Police Department because Pobar because we did not follow the rules so

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

thank you I really appreciated that clarification now regarding the director I know there's a lot of conversation relating to who the city council has authority over that is the city clerk city attorney and city manager is there anything under state law that prohibits the city council from from having authority over the director other than our city charter.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

I am not aware of any additional state law, but remember as a charter city, the general laws of the state don't apply to you.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Right, but the charter can be amended via a ballot initiative started by the public or a ballot measure placed on a ballot. By the city council. By the city council. Absolutely correct. Which is similar to what Oakland did. Thank you. So I just want to clarify that it is not outside of the realm of possibility that the City Council places a ballot measure on the ballot to bring another employee under the direction of the City Council. I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just saying that it's possible.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

And that's exactly the advice. That's specifically and precisely the advice that I gave in this Council Chambers in 2020. I remember. Yes.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So thank you. Another question is relating to section 2-665A. It states that there are some edits indicating that the commission shall review, evaluate, and make recommendations to the city manager regarding the police department's policies, practices, and procedures. It did strike out, develop programs and strategies to promote positive police community relations and make appropriate recommendations to the city manager and the city council. May I ask what was the reason for the strikeout?

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

That's on page 15-7, section 2-665A.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

So I just want to know why we have the strikeouts to the provisions stating that the Commission shall develop programs and strategies to promote positive police community relations and make appropriate recommendations to the City Manager and the City Council.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

15-7 or 4-14 of the ordinance? Or page 649 of the agenda packet?

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So in the end, it's given the administrative responsibility again to the city manager to make sure we implement the proper products within the police department. There's no, from our perspective, there was no necessary language in the municipal code that doesn't require the commission to still make that recommendation to the director and to the city manager, or for that matter, as the city council appointed commissioner to to make it to the city council. That's the only reason why.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

But there's nothing prohibiting it.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

Exactly.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Right, because I do understand in a variety of different cities, as well as I think even our own potential, I think when we were going through reviews of different ordinances, for example, various commissions can make recommendations to the city council in adopting a policy.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So one part of the perspective we looked at, I think the planning commission was one one that we looked at specifically. So again, it maintains the parameters within the administrative body, which is again within the city organizational structure. So the Planning Commission may intend, present ideas and present to the administrative body, right? And therefore to then from that aspect, go to some from, say, Secretary of Planning and Building to the city manager and up to the command. That's the parameters, right? So it's not a permissive or prohibitive component. component, which is maintaining the same administrative parameters.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

So a city council appointed commissioner does not necessarily have to only do it through this venue. It doesn't prohibit them to talk to you directly.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Right. So then I guess to me, Subdivision A should only strike out the last, I guess, phrase and the city council because there's nothing in my opinion or any type of says police chief and city council. Council. Review, evaluate, and make recommendations to the City Manager regarding the Police Department's policies, practices, and procedures, develop programs and strategies to promote positive police-community relations, and make appropriate recommendations to the City Manager.

Alvaro NuñezItem 4

And we have no problem with that.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. In subsection, so it's still section 2-665 , it states that complaints Complaints made against Santa Ana police officers only when, excuse me, let me back up.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Subdivision B states that the city, excuse me, the Police Oversight Commission receive, hear and review, subdivision four, complaints made against Santa Ana police officers only when the internal affairs investigation is completed with sustained findings for the following conduct, prejudice, discrimination, dishonesty, et cetera. Will you please clarify? I'm not sure who to direct this to, why it is relating to only when an IA investigation is complete with sustained findings?

I can address one component of that. I'll leave the policy decision making. But with regard to the legal aspect of it, this again addresses that dual investigation, the tracking as it relates to POBAR and Government Code 3303. It could obviously create confusion. It could result in costly and needless litigation. With respect to the sustained findings, one of the things that was discussed and ultimately determined was to track the state law, again, under Penal Code Section 832.7. And we do understand that there are individuals who view the fact that the complaint must be sustained as too narrow.

But to reiterate, the amendments are not only consistent with state law, they actually provide transparency because if it's sustained findings, then the public does get disclosure of those records so they can get all of it they can get everything so that that answer is a legal component

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

of thank you but just to clarify when you're saying state law you mean the public records act the penal code section okay yes okay so i guess my when we're talking about the dual track investigation right again the concern there is the back-to-back interrogation of any officer who's been alleged misconduct, who has alleged misconduct. So we want to avoid that. And we want to avoid missing the one-year deadline. Makes sense.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

But there's nothing legally prohibiting the commission under state law from receiving, hearing, and reviewing complaints made against a Santa Ana police officer relating to the following conducts prejudice or discrimination against a protected class

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

yes and i you know what before you even finished i knew exactly where you're going i don't know if it's because it's lawyer to lawyer but i know exactly where you're going you're concerned i get it because we're trying to distinguish i think you're trying to distinguish between an investigation and the commission being able to hear someone come forward and say there's this complaint regarding sexual misconduct by this officer or there's an excessive force complaint against this officer i just want to know what that complaint is i'd like to know that it's being investigated by the ia and you know what's the

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

timeline i think that's different right from a dual track investigation where you're interrogating

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

an officer so we didn't have mind meld i guess what i was trying to clarify is while i do understand the concerns relating to making sure we don't have a dual track investigation there's nothing preventing the police oversight commission from doing the investigation regarding these

various topics correct if I may offer a perspective I think one way to look at it and I may get pushed back from the city I'm sorry first will you please

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

answer the legal question that I just asked and then give me your perspective is there anything legally prohibiting the police oversight Commission from reviewing hearing and receiving complaints made against an SAPD officer officer relating to prejudice, discrimination, dishonesty, sexual assault, et cetera?

I think 832.7 can be read to allow a police commission to investigate those complaints.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

OK, thank you. But I want to hear your perspective now.

The penal code is a little confusing.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I wonder who wrote that.

Yeah, I'd like to have words with them.

Some components contemplate a sustained finding without clarifying that the Police Commission can make that finding. But certain instances, including sexual assault, dishonesty, discrimination, and unlawful arrest or unlawful search, the penal code contemplates an oversight agency conducting those investigations.

So something to keep in mind if the city moves forward with an oversight model as the ordinance is drafted now the Commission is restricted as I read it with the revisions to only looking at IA investigations regarding those four categories where IA made sustained findings. I think the penal code gives the Oversight Commission the authority to look at all IA investigations, even if IA did not make a sustained finding, because the Oversight Agency also has authority

to conduct those investigations. Therefore, the oversight agency can get access to those underlying records so that it could better assess and audit those IA investigations.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. So essentially, what I'm trying to get at and trying to understand is that it seems It seems to me that this addition limits or narrows the areas that may be received, heard and reviewed by the commission, but that we don't have to narrow it so much, that it could be broader given that they can actually do the investigation of any of these topics.

I think it could be broader.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you.

And if I may add to that? Sure.

Penal Code 832.7 notes that

records regarding officer-involved shootings may be made public, and in the penal code, you don't see that restriction limited to OISs that end in death. The city ordinance restricts that access to OISs that end in death. I'm not sure why, why, but my concern is an investigation or an audit should not be limited to officer-involved shootings that end in death. Whether or not that officer is investigated should not depend on whether or not that officer is a qualified marksman.

If an officer points his or her weapon at a person and discharges that weapon, regardless of whether they miss, I think that that should be investigated and audited.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. And I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that a variety of state laws, federal laws, case law, are subject to a variety of interpretations. This is why we don't have a consistent oversight model in every agency, every department, et cetera, and they're all a little bit different. And reasonable minds may differ. That's why there's this court case right now. So that's very helpful and I'm glad you're here. My other question is relating to, you know, we had some comments, I can't remember who brought it up, about members of the oversight commission reaching out to the public.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I think this was regarding the mutual aid request. Okay, thank you.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Where I think some members of the commission had said, hey, if you saw anything, report it, et cetera. And we had concerns regarding whether they would be impartial and whether they're going to be a proper investigative body. I guess my question is, what is the limitations on educating the public when you're a member of such a commission? So for example, is the commission able to say, this is the, or educate members of the public regarding this is the process for submitting a complaint? This is what we do when we receive a complaint.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

What is the line there in your experience, if you have any? or has no oversight body you've worked with done that kind of education I'll

try to answer your question councilmember and let me know if I don't but generally what what I've seen public oversight entities will provide access to the complaint process on their website they will include detailed instructions as to how a complaint can be filed and what happens after that complaint is filed so as I mentioned earlier and other auditing based agencies such as LA County OIG LA City OIG Pasadena etc the website will say you can

file your complaint here we will forward it to the police department and then we will audit how the police department goes about investigating that complaint I absolutely think that there should be widespread public information made available about how to file a complaint. When I was with DOJ, usually we would include language in a consent decree that dictated how the complaint process should be publicized. and we would require you know paper complaints be left in in public

facilities like like like libraries things like that and that PRAs what do

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

they call them public well it's kind of like one of those I have a comment box yeah so that makes sense because you want to make it as accessible as possible so in your expert opinion is a commissioner prohibited from sharing information regarding the generic process itself to my knowledge there's

no law that prohibits a commissioner from generally sharing how a complaint complaint can be filed.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. But do you think that there is some type of limitation or concern when there is a, whether it's one commissioner, the entire commission, whatever, begins to solicit complaints or investigations?

I think commissioners should be able to provide public information regarding how to file a complaint. I'm not familiar with the specific details regarding one or two of the commissioners who...

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

I don't think it matters. I think it's just more say, you know, council member fan goes and does something crazy or there's an officer fan goes out and does something wild in the police car, right? And then a commissioner says, hey, did you see that? Send a complaint in.

If a member of the public wants to know how to file a complaint, that question should certainly be answered.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Okay. But I'm guessing, okay. So let me backtrack then. Because I'm trying to understand the limitations of what the commission can do here. Because it is my understanding that when I approved this commission, it wasn't solely just to be a review body. I think it could do that. I think that's a great idea. I think that what you had explained to me as to reviewing the variety of investigations and determining where are the shortcomings, what are the type of misbehavior or misconduct that is repeated I think gets to the root of a variety of issues but I also believe that there was a strong consensus it seems to me if I recall

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

correctly to have an investigative body that can look into specific types of misconduct however I'm also I also recall a lot of concerns about having the Oversight Commission look at specific or different policies to give

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

recommendations right and i want to respond to this because i think i again i think i know what you're trying to get i think that there's a difference on any legislative body whether it's a police commission or the city council in giving information and outright advocacy or aggressive advocacy that's where i think the line is drawn and i think with respect to the police commissioners it's not that the police commissioners can say oh there was a protest out at such and such intersections on Sunday and we heard that there were some maybe potentially inappropriate behaviors if anybody in the community is aware of those could you please

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

there's a process for for reporting those there's a process for reporting those and we really want to get to the bottom of this that is very different from going on social media and saying the police are terrible people this is what they did and you know posting that over social media because I think I think in my mind the difference between, hey, I'm a commissioner and I have a duty as commissioner to look deeply into these things. I wanna know if there's misdoings and inappropriate behavior versus that advocacy. I think personally that that's where it draws the line. I think if you have that level of advocacy,

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

then it just works against what we're trying to achieve, which is this way of looking at these issues freshly, right, want a fresh perspective, and we want there to be clarity and I think you can't have that because if you're gonna create that animosity mm-hmm on the Commission then the Commission's not gonna function same thing with the City Council and you know I've sent you guys these things about being civil and doing the right thing because it deters from the purpose of the council it deters from the purpose of the Commission so I think it's the information I think we're all in

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

agreement versus the advocacy thank you and as a legal matter when there is such such advocacy in one direction or another, but in particular, say, against the police department only because Pobar exists, right? There's no Pobar for the public, but there's Pobar for an individual police officer with due process rights. Are there legal concerns if a member of the commission advocates in that manner that may then violate Pobar or due process for an officer?

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

I think it is. I mean, I think they have to be mindful of the law in the same way that council members

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

have to be mindful of the law. Thank you. So the reason why such admonition is made is to ensure that if an officer who's been alleged to have misconduct is found to have misconduct, is to ensure that we can actually implement discipline and so that they do not then appeal and get reinstated and get back pay.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Yeah, and even if their claims cannot be substantiated, if you have an officer who is potentially subject to discipline but can show evidence of members of the commission or members of the council saying negative things about them or aggressively going against them, whether that's actionable or not, it's going to end up in the lawsuit.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

Thank you. So I just wanted to understand, right, because I do believe that it's important for members members of any commission, the city council, to educate the public in this type of new process that we're trying to implement. The other question I had is relating to statements, I guess a First Amendment question, because this is kind of difficult. When you're sitting as a hearing body, and maybe Director Morse, you can answer this, or Madam City Attorney, when you're sitting as a hearing body, I imagine while you do have First Amendment rights when you exist out in the world, such statements may then

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

affect your ability to carry out your duties as a hearing body.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

Yes. As I always tell the city council members, when you're sitting there as legislators, you can have very strong opinions. But when you're sitting as a quasi-adjudicative body looking at a CUP review on appeal or a variance, I always tell you your opinions at this point don't matter. It's the evidence and the findings you make to support it. And if you go off before CUP appeal and I hear that you're advocating for or against the applicant, you'll be disqualified. And there is case law in California that says you are violating their due process rights. »» I remember.

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

»» I do. Clark. »» Okay, Councilmember, are you done? »» I guess, well, just to close my comments out, is, you know, because there were some concerns about being able to speak publicly and and what can we do to educate the public i think it's important to remind members of the public but that the reason sometimes whether it's the council or members of the commission cannot speak about cases or certain issues is to ensure that any type of discipline if there are any you know we protect the due process rights of the officers and any type of discipline that may be imposed i would like to make a comment regarding

Thai Viet PhanItem 4

regarding the motion, you know, there's, I still have so many questions. I guess that if we're going to do a study session with the Police Oversight Commission, with the ad hoc, I'd request that I'd be able to be there. It's gonna be a Brown Act meeting anyway, might as well do a study session.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 4

That's-Well, I'd say if you wanna do that, I think for safety, if people wanna listen, maybe safer under the Brown Act to notice both meetings. Both meetings, I don't understand why we wouldn't. notice to city council and and the commission if you're headed in that direction that would be my

Phil BacerraItem 4

advice council member becerra thank you madam mayor all right there we go um i i want to thank council member fan for bringing up the you know really kind of drilling down on the whole emphasis about the the one year and pobar because i think when we had the first ad hoc that was probably one of the things that we spent a lot of time talking about was trying to understand if we're going to to pursue as a part or a component, I think like a hybrid of the Police Oversight Commission to have an investigative function, then there would have to be guarantees because for those

Phil BacerraItem 4

that want to ensure that this commission weighs in on potential punishment or some sort of penalties, you would have to have had everything wrapped up within a year. And given the complexities of some of these investigations, that's not possible. And so it would be, I would say, unfair for this council to promise the community that there would be a process that would ensure that somebody is investigated. and that absolutely a recommendation for potential discipline or action would be

Phil BacerraItem 4

guaranteed because there's a very likely chance that the investigation being done concurrently by PD would not be able to be completed in time and so by the time that based on some of the stuff that our director had already mentioned as far as what they're limited to it just couldn't be done and so I think at least for me me personally, that's where I started to say, well, okay, the investigative component is a little more difficult to accomplish. With that, I want to ask, I want to go back to kind of piggybacking off of what Councilmember

Phil BacerraItem 4

Phan was asking, which is going back to, let's see, it would be 2-665 . before. And when we talk about complaints made against Santa Ana police officers only when the internal affairs investigation is completed with sustained findings for the following conduct, and it lists the six items. Please remind me and clarify, at least I don't know why I'm remembering it this way, and I think it might have been also something you said tonight so if it's not sustained findings then pobar kicks in as far as what is disclosable

to the public is that correct not pobar oh penal code 832.7 okay which is the disclosure of confidential peace officer personnel records so so then just so everybody understands the same

Phil BacerraItem 4

thing so if this section did not say with sustained findings correct what would what what what What implications does that have? So if I say to you, Tamara, we're striking with sustained findings.

Yes, good question. If the sustained findings is stricken, then I agree with Mr. Morris that the commission can still review not sustained findings, but the public would not have access to those records for the categories under 832.7 where a sustained finding is required.

Phil BacerraItem 4

And those categories are the ones that are listed here as one through six.

The little i, for little i.

Phil BacerraItem 4

I'm sorry, i, yeah, i through six.

Exactly, through six.

Phil BacerraItem 4

So those, in other words, the commission can review them.

Yes.

Phil BacerraItem 4

And then when they're done, their findings could not be disclosable.

No, not unless a pitch-as-motion is filed and there's a court order.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Okay.

Or the officer consents and agrees to release.

Phil BacerraItem 4

Okay, so then I guess, so let's say, just bear with me so let's say we strike the words with sustained findings right so we basically say okay Commission we want to allow you to review these because for the spirit and intent of trying to say how does this Commission provide policy recommendations so that they can better improve their processes if we strike with sustained findings from this section yes so then the The commission reviews it. Does it prevent them from having a public discussion? Does it then become a closed session discussion?

Phil BacerraItem 4

I guess walk me through how do they get from reviewing these to then the ultimate goal, which is to give the city manager and ultimately the chief the policy recommendations because of what they investigated based on dishonesty, sexual assault, one of these categories.

For the confidential peace officer record categories, they would need to discuss that in closed session and review those materials under the cloak of confidentiality and the confidentiality agreement that they signed. In the event that the Commission reviews not sustained findings, for example, and want to make policy recommendations, it's got to be sanitized. So it can be statistics and data and general information not connected to a particular investigation or a particular officer.

Phil BacerraItem 5

So they can still make policy recommendations. They just couldn't say based off of X officer.

Or an incident that occurred at this location at this time involving this officer.

Phil BacerraItem 5

So a lot of blacking out information.

Yes.

Phil BacerraItem 5

Okay. So let me see. So I'm just going to throw a sub-sub motion in here. So what I'd like to throw out, bear with me. so move the item tonight with um and this is based off of some of the items that councilmember fan brought up so 2-665a adding back in the language up to the word uh manager so then that section would read regarding the police department's policies practices and procedures develop programs and strategies to promote positive police community relations and make appropriate

Phil BacerraItem 5

recommendations to the city manager period and then let's see oh actually let me let me pause my motion making for one second so the other question I had on b31 in regards to and this is a section that we're not recommending changes to so it says basically complaints made against Santa police officers then it says officer involved shootings discharge of a firearm at a person by a Santa Ana peace officer that results in death and as the discussion

Phil BacerraItem 5

was going on yeah there if a police officer is shooting whether they hit the person or not wouldn't that be something that this Commission should review right And so whether it results in death or not, if we were to strike the words that results in death, are there any potential implications?

Not at all. In fact, the statute itself does not include that results in death.

Phil BacerraItem 5

Okay, so that would be my other part of the motion. So 2665A and then 2665B31, removing the phrase that results in death. death, and then B for removing with sustained findings. And I guess I'm going to ask you, Madam City Attorneys, is there anything that we need to add to this section to clarify what we just discussed as far as what can be disclosed, or is that something that doesn't need to be included in here because that is already covered in state law?

You literally just said what I was going to say. Perfect. Covered in state law.

Phil BacerraItem 5

See, I have a better mind than you did. So with that... I saw him in the pulpit.

Thai Viet PhanItem 5

Actually, there was contact. That's criminal battery. Thank you.

Phil BacerraItem 5

Well, it doesn't cover in here, so we're good. So with that, that'll be my motion with those three amendments.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Councillor Mann, panellist.

David PenalozaItem 5

Thank you, Mayor. Mayor, I just wanted to first off thank city staff and the city attorney's office and the people that came in to speak tonight. Like many members of the public, when I first saw these proposed changes, it was when they were first published just last month. And to be quite honest, I think I mentioned it to the city manager, I was a little confused that why we were reopening this conversation, why it was happening again, why we were seeing these changes. But all those questions have been answered today. Thank you, City Attorney's Office, Tamara and Sonia,

David PenalozaItem 5

for walking us through the process of how we got here and why we're having this conversation tonight. And thank you to the ad hoc members for really digging into this to make sure we were able to clean up the ordinance. I wanted to, I had some questions in clarifying the legal and operational recommendations that were, or adjustments that were being recommended tonight.

David PenalozaItem 5

But one of the things that I, and Council Member Becerra mentioned this earlier, I mean, at least as one of the original council members that agendized this to kickstart this conversation and get us here, which seems like it was just yesterday, but it was five years ago, to get us to this point. The intention was always on my behalf is to make our police department better and bridge that trust and community-oriented policing that we want to. And nobody likes bad cops.

David PenalozaItem 5

I mean, that's also, you know, accountability is part of it. And all of us up here have always shown to support that. Some of the changes in the ordinance that I do support right off the bat, and I think it's important, is the training and the mandated attendance of the Citizens Police Academy by our commissioners. And to be quite honest with everybody, I mean, I've watched a couple of these meetings, tuned in, and a lot of the, some of the conversations that I see happening are pretty painful.

David PenalozaItem 5

I mean the questions being asked a lot of them of surrounding policy are you know just to be honest that some of them come off as as stupid the questions I'm like are they really asking these questions are they just trying to make a show or do they really not know so I think it's important that if they're going to be suggesting and and recommending policy changes to our police department these commissioners should know what these policies are and what these operational procedures within our police department are as just makes its common sense to me that that would be a requirement it would probably make the

David PenalozaItem 5

meetings more efficient because there wouldn't be a need to ask a lot of the questions that are sometimes asked that you're set there scratching your head it's like why how are you over how are you an oversight commissioner but you who don't know just basic procedure and policies that our police department operates under every single day. The one amendment that I had questions with, and I guess this is just, again, operationally, and I've always been up, I want to, the way that, you know, I've never wavered from my process-oriented policy decision-making.

David PenalozaItem 5

It's getting from A, B to C, right? The confidentiality section and updates that, while I do, I understand why and I'm very supportive of it, I'm trying to understand just operationally, if we were to make changes to the confidentiality

David PenalozaItem 5

side of the conversations, how would that play out in a public conversation? I know that when releasing information and maybe the City Attorney's Office could chime into this. How does that look like in a public police oversight commission meeting when you have these confidentiality changes? Can somebody walk me through that just briefly?

The confidentiality section, are you addressing 2-663 specifically? Yes. Okay. Okay, and the changes made there about the failure to comply?

David PenalozaItem 5

Right.

Right. That was added based on the fact that there are provisions, obviously, as we've discussed this evening with respect to the confidentiality of peace officer personnel records. If the request is can you legally remove that amendment, yes, you can legally remove it. it but it doesn't have an accountability factor there for commissioners who may violate confidentiality. So it's a policy decision for this council, for this body to make a decision on. »» Right.

David PenalozaItem 5

And I understand that but if how, I guess what I'm trying to say is how do you have a public conversation about a pending investigation or matter before if there's a confidentiality clause. I CAN'T, LET'S SAY THERE IS A USE OF FORCE COMPLAINT LODGED AGAINST A POLICE OFFICER BY A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC AND THIS POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION IS AUDITING OR INVESTIGATING OR OVERSEEING, WHATEVER THE WORD YOU WANT TO USE, HOW DO YOU HAVE THAT, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S DONE PRIVATELY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S OPENLY DISCUSSED DURING

David PenalozaItem 5

THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION? NOW I UNDERSTAND. I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN EASILY HAVE THAT CONVERSATION conversation without violating a confidentiality clause?

Now I understand your question. It depends. And I know you're going to say, well, that's always the lawyer's response. But really it does. It depends on the subject matter of the investigation. If it is one of the categories under 832.7 that is subject to public disclosure, then it's going to be discussed publicly, no problem. Now certain things will need to be redacted, witness names, specific identifying information. That we don't want disclosed publicly. But if it is not one of those categories and it is not a sustained finding, that would

have to occur either sanitized, like I was telling Councilmember Becerra, without a particular officer's name, particular incident that maybe might be publicly known, you know, through social media or whatever, or in closed session.

David PenalozaItem 5

So during conversations, during publishing of any staff report for the police oversight commission, it would just be names would be redacted, it would just be, would the commission know which officer this is or would it just be officer number one, this, this and that to citizen number two or number one and officer two? I mean is that what?

If they've reviewed the files privately in closed session and they know about the incident and then it's sanitized, yes, they'll know. But if it wasn't previously disclosed to them, they would not.

David PenalozaItem 5

So these, and I know and I want to thank Councilmember Phan for always asking all the right legal questions because I don't want to violate anybody's due process or pole bar rights or any of that. So I'm happy that this conversation happened, but I still have a lot of questions on just the basic process and operational side of it. So yeah, I know there's like five motions on the floor.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

And I have to interrupt you with one more. I am so sorry. This is your 11 o'clock warning bell. So we either... I'll make a motion to 1130.

David PenalozaItem 5

I'll second.

Phil BacerraItem 5

I'll sub motion to keep going until we get this done tonight.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

I'll second that. I'll make a sub motion to come back in 60 days.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

Chair Greg Musil. Dear God.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

Okay. Hold on a second. Let's go back to the issue that was raised. Exactly. This is regarding the time. What is before you is only the time if you want to, if you do not make a motion to continue conversations and identify which agenda items. So the Mayor made it. Is there a second to the Mayor's motion? I'll make a motion to move to 1130.

David PenalozaItem 5

No, I withdraw my second. Second.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

Thank you, Council.

Phil BacerraItem 5

I'll make a motion to move until we get this done tonight.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 5

I'll make a motion to

David PenalozaItem 5

There's already a substitute

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

motion. We're waiting for a second on the substitute.

David PenalozaItem 5

I'll second the sub motion to just whatever the decision is.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 5

Let's vote on the substitute motion which is to continue conversation until this item is finished.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 5

I'll do a roll call.

Jennifer L. HallItem 5

Madam Clerk, please. Yes. Motion by Councilmember Becerra, seconded by Councilmember Penalosa to continue the meeting until this item is concluded. Councilmember Becerra? Yes. Councilmember Hernandez? No.

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

Councilmember Penalosa? Yes. Councilmember Phan? Yes. Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez? No. Mayor Meskwa? Yes. Yes. So it's four ayes, two nays. Nays by Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez and Council Member Hernandez and noted absence by Council Member Lopez. Motion carries. This item will be discussed until concluded.

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

Are you done?

David PenalozaItem 15

So yeah, those are my comments. Thank you.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

So I have a comment and then I think it looks like we're done. I don't see any microphones going up. And then there's a motion. So I just have a comment. I thank everybody for the comments and questions, city staff, you know, the ad hoc committee. but there was a lot of discussion tonight about transparency the community and we want them to trust us and you know Pobar is very important to officers and you know all those wonderful things however as I'm sitting here listening it's also the police department that needs to we also want to have a positive relationship with the police department because there are what

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Mr. City Manager, over 500 employees of the city police department? Over 600 employees of the police department. So I would hope that none of us up here want to have

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

something before us that makes our police department, our officers for that matter, hesitate to do their job.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

think that we're as a council we're out to get them and we're gonna this because this Commission the Oversight Commission there has been a few incidents and thank you councilmember fan for asking the questions about commissioners and how do we get that information I know your heads growing bigger tonight but how do we get that information out and I know you had answers from Jack and our city attorney, but when you have commissioners that are hostile to our, and even council members, hostile to our police department, it causes problems for the entire city.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

And I remember when I got elected, one of the conversations was with somebody in the community, I said there's a cancer in our police department. There was a previous chief, previous city manager, previous leadership. We now have a new city manager, we now have a new police chief, and there's been changes and many improvements. And so with everything that we're talking about up here tonight and how we're going to vote, however we end up voting, is that I really want to be mindful. And people will say, oh, she's saying that because she likes police. I like police, I like fire.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

And when we say, oh, well, the police funded her campaign, that's not true. A lot of people funded my campaign. However, we can say the same thing about people who sit up here. You can look at their donations and think, how much cannabis money did you receive? That's why you wanna have a cannabis festival in our city. Or how much did you get from the whatever party? Or how much did a certain person give you? Who did your IE? We can do all that all night long. The bottom line to me is that if we're talking about our community being treated right, being transparent, being honest, having open dialogue,

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Then our officers, just like when firemen come up here and they say, yeah, they save lives, so do officers. And they deserve the exact same thing that the community is asking for, in my opinion. And I think the majority of us up here feel that way. Because this is not a gotcha committee. Should not be a, we got you now. We're going to get all these investigations and gotcha, we're going to fire you. Because the moment, and I've had this conversation with the city attorney and the city manager, The moment that, and Jack, you can say I'm wrong, please, if I am.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

The moment that an officer files a lawsuit because he or she feels that he or she's being treated unfairly by this committee, it will hold us up for however long it takes. And I believe that's why Chief Luna has put a stop to, if I'm correct, has put a halt to his commission at this point because of a lawsuit. Madam City Attorney, is that correct?

Yes.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 15

My understanding is that the LA lawsuit. Oh, with Luna. Yes.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Yes. And so if an officer files a lawsuit, how long or what will happen? It'll hold us up?

In the investigation?

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Yes.

Well, the investigation will have already been completed if they were disciplined. and they have a lawsuit following that disciplinary action. So it can proceed in the courts for however long it can go, sometimes years.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

And Councilmember Phan, again, we're going to give her a lot of kudos tonight. She was in her best tonight. She had good coffee.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

We will end up paying back pay. That officer, he or she will get her job back or his job back. And we will lose. and that's the one thing that as as a mayor sitting up here I do not want to sit up here and say well we got another lawsuit we're paying five million dollars because we did it wrong or because we violated po bar whatever made there's all these what-ifs and I think that's what we need to understand up here that and you know the deputy city manager and her last page here she She has, see if I get this right.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

She has section 2-671-2-699. These are placeholders for potential future provision related to oversight without requiring ordinance restructuring. And thank you for that because you can bet we're gonna come back at some point once things start moving. We're gonna come back with changes. changes. Those of us that have been around a long time, whatever position you've had, but you sit on committees or worked for the county for 30 years, the city manager, any type of executive positions, you know that you may give out a policy today, even as lawyers, you do it today and tomorrow something changes.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

And so I'm glad that you put that in there as a placeholder because you can bet we're going to be back here and we're going to be having a different discussion. So thank you, deputy city manager. I appreciate it. And so with that, I think there's a motion on the floor, Madam Clerk.

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

We have several actually. The last one that was made was by Councilmember Becerra. However, there was no second to that motion. Which one? Related to the three amendments to Section 2-665A, 2665B3, and 665B4.

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 15

I'll second his motion. How many motions are actually on the floor? That would be the third. That's the third. Okay. Okay, then we'll get on three. There you go.

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

So this would be a motion by Councilmember Becerra, seconded by Mayor Meskwa to introduce for first reading the ordinance as presented with the stated revisions to Section 2-665A to add back in the stricken through language up to City Manager, removing language from 2-665B3 that results in death and removing language in Section 2-665B4 with sustained findings council member becerra yes council member hernandez no council member penelosa

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

yes council member fan no

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

mayor pro tempest no mayor mezcua yes but it's three eyes three nays eyes by council member Mayor Meskwa and Council Members of Sarah and Penalosa. Motion fails. Reverting back to the previous sub-motion by Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez, seconded by Mayor Meskwa to review this ordinance in conjunction with the Police Oversight Commission and Oversight Director in return in 60 days.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Can I ask a question please? Mr. City Manager, how do you see that? Because it's the ad hoc with the commission. Commission. So if Council Member Fan is asking that she be present, then the entire City Council will want to be present. And so Madam City Attorney or Mr. City Manager, because

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 15

it turns into this. We just have a joint meeting. So if it went that way, we could notice both

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

meetings at the same time. Great. Okay. So I just want to make sure that we're clear, the public hears it. And so nobody walks out of here and writes in the wrong information. So we're really clear. Can you say that Mr. City Manager? So actually, so I can understand

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

I understand the motion then. So we're looking at joint meeting between the City Council and the Police Oversight Commission. One joint meeting.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

In 60 days.

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

In 60 days. And our intent is probably to have it here at the Council Chambers. It makes it a lot easier.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

And that will be the only item on the agenda.

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

Special meeting? Yes. Okay.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Okay. Go ahead, Madam City Clerk. Wait.

Phil BacerraItem 15

Can I make one friendly amendment? You guys can throw it away if you don't want. as a requirement everybody up here has a meeting with the city attorney city manager and possibly the police chief everybody up here needs to be prepared for that meeting because I don't want to have that meeting just for everybody to go well I don't know and I still have a million questions no do the damn homework before you get up here okay and and Morse so those four okay I'm just

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 15

letting you know the more I told but the more you include more difficult to potentially schedule. I'm not thinking about me or staff. I'm thinking about our special director. This is important enough. We need to do it.

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

I'm free. He says he's free. I can make myself available. Okay. All right. So then there's a... This is the motion by Mayor Potem Vasquez, seconded by Mayor Mezcla, to now hold a joint special meeting with the Police Oversight Commission and the Independent Oversight Director to review the proposed ordinance and possible revisions in 60 days and within 60 days and what and that all

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

members of the council be prepared and the committee be prepared and having met with with the city manager city attorney and the oversight director and police chief and police chief those

Jennifer L. HallItem 15

four chief individual meetings of but you know you can do them group it doesn't matter as long as they do them meetings with the city manager the city attorney the police chief and the oversight site director that's correct you get it that okay that's member be Sarah yes council member Hernandez yes councilor Penalosa yes house member fan yes mayor pro tempest yes mayor Mesquite yes oh does six eyes no nays with a recorded absence by council member Lopez motion carries joint special meeting to be held

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

within the next 60 days all right okay let's go right now to mr city manager any comments or

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

so uh one one one major one so as many are aware uh there was a sympathy um strike um work stoppage with republic um our waste collector company we've been informed that they've initiated the the retrieval of all waste. And we've been informed that they should be cut up by the end of the week. At least that's...

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Mr. City Manager, our community should at least get a minimum of $20 reimbursement from Republic, if not $40. I'd like to have that discussion with them for reimbursement to our constituents.

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

We'll set it up.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Thank you. Any other comments?

Alvaro NuñezItem 15

That is my comments.

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you very much. Thank you. I am proud of this body for joining Los Angeles and their litigation against Trump and ICE raids that we've had. Really proud of the work that we've done together. I appreciate you guys for all of us, for each one voting along. Santa Ana has long time led the way from sanctuary city to legal defense fund. Always been doing good work in that aspect. That being said, I'm also proud of our community for coming together to defend each other. I'm proud of all the groups who have led the way,

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

including OC Rapid Response, the Community Patrol Group. Like there's, they keep popping up, and I'm just proud of the work that people are doing. I know that I helped organize a mutual aid fundraiser. I was called on by the Garcia brothers at La Santa to do a fundraiser. And we did a fundraiser and I looked around and I asked who wants to put on the music and we got to SUI to organize our musicians and we got all kinds of folks came in and we got money, mutual aid, for the National Day Laborers Organization.

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

The Garcia brothers came to me again from La Santa and let's do some more work. And I'm like, great, let me talk to some more people. So of course I called OC Rapid Response Network. Can we do a fundraiser for you as they've been buying out vendors so they could go for the day because it's dangerous for vendors to be out there. So thank you to everybody who's participated. We will have Musica en la Migra on the 24th, July 24th, on the Thursday next week at La Santa, of course. Thank you. It's been great. The Del High Library is open and it's been a quiet opening and can't wait to do the grand opening.

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

And also I'm looking forward to Jerome Park. It's being built right now. There's a lot of work being done. So thank you. as we quietly do the work here in Santa Ana. And I appreciate what has become of our city. My staff has put on, we've been getting trash bins to every neighborhood that needs one. So if you're in New Horizon or Mid City or Central City, give my staff a call or reach out to me and we'll get the trash bins and organize the neighborhood. I know Pacific Park's been doing good. Piccolo and Hinderger Park have everything down together, but I need to help organize the other ones as we come across.

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

But thank you community for coming together. Have a good night.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Thank you Mayor Pro Tem. Council Member Lopez is not here. As we know, she's at Harvard, so there's no comments. Council Member Panalosa.

David PenalozaItem 15

Thank you Madam Mayor. I just wanted to thank city staff for indulging us tonight and also just wanted to double down on the Mayor's comment about aggressively going after Republic Services to make sure that they credit our residents and our businesses for, I don't care if they've caught up or if they're going to catch up, they still missed a pickup. So that needs to go back to our residents because we do pay a lot of money for these services and I expect for them to be done in a timely manner. So I would hope that we work with our trash hauler to make sure that that credit is issued on their behalf.

David PenalozaItem 15

With that said, I also want to remind our community that this Friday we will be having a Toy Story movie at the park at Memorial Park. Thank you, Parks and Rec, for your work every year in putting this together. We're going to be out there. I know I'll wear my Chairman of the Toll Roads hat for two seconds. The toll roads are also going to be out there, and they're going to bring with them a lot of fossils that were initially uncovered when the toll roads were built.

David PenalozaItem 15

It's kind of fascinating the number of prehistoric animals and mammals and marine animals that were discovered when the 73 and the 241 were being constructed. So just think of how far these freeways are from the ocean and the fact that there were wells and all kinds of marine animals uncovered. I don't think they'll bring the wells with them or the fossils, but they will bring some. So please come out and join us, 5 p.m. I believe. And I know the police department's also gonna be there hosting National Night Out, which is a very, very popular event with our community. So happy that they're there as well.

David PenalozaItem 15

So looking forward to that. Thank you everybody and have a good, oh, before I forget, I did say that I would highlight all of my kids first time, it was our first time at the emergency room this morning at Chalk Hospital. Little Miss Penny fell and hit her head and so there was nothing wrong with her, she's fine, but we panicked, we're new parents. So doctor was like, she's fine, take her home. So that was my morning. Anyways, that's it. Good night, everybody.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Is it somebody's birthday? Council Member Fenn's telling me to tell you.

David PenalozaItem 15

Oh, yes. My wife, it's her, not today, her birthday is next week, and I just wanna wish her a very happy early birthday. Thank you.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Is there anything else you want me to say? Council Member Fenn.

David PenalozaItem 15

Okay. I love you, Kim.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Mayor Pro Tem, you want me to come back? I don't know what's happening tonight. Go ahead.

Benjamin VazquezItem 15

Thank you very much. Really quick, I wanna apologize for the name calling that was said earlier, I don't condone those words, especially with people, my guests, and I will have a conversation with any future guests and I will try to be the best to be a gentleman and push that model that forward. So I do apologize for that name calling. If you come to speak at the dais, that's your First Amendment right, but as a guest, please be a gentleman or be a lady when you're invited, thank you.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Thank you, Mayor Pretem, I really appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Thai Viet PhanItem 15

Councilmember Phan. Well first I'd like to say thank you so much to staff and members of the community who came out to our 4th of July celebration at Centennial Park. It was truly wonderful to see families out there celebrating and really showing what it is to be American in this country whether you're an immigrant like myself, you're Latino, Asian, I thought that was really wonderful to to see the community come together. With that, I'd like to congratulate again Director Nabil Saba on a well-deserved retirement, his tireless dedication to the city of Santa Ana, and also his family's dedication,

Thai Viet PhanItem 15

because they really had to put up with a lot to let him stay here. And finally, we'll see each other, well, we'll see all of you if you come to Memorial Park for National Night Out. I hope there are free hot dogs. Again, Chief, are there gonna be free hot dogs by the police department?

Thai Viet PhanItem 15

All right, well, I'm expecting hot dogs, so please, please make it happen. And with that, have a wonderful night. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Councillor Becerra.

Phil BacerraItem 15

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just want to echo what my colleague said about Republic. I was very disappointed. While I appreciate the solidarity with our brothers and sisters in labor, they have a job to do, they being Republic. public and they have a contract with us and I hope that our staff does follow through and pursuing whatever credits they can for our residents. Things are expensive these days and you know having trash piled outside and not you know getting credit for this inconvenience is it just we have to they have to do better and we've got to do better. Since we won't have another council meeting

Phil BacerraItem 15

before the first Saturday in August I'm gonna be hosting my monthly community office hours on Saturday, August 2nd at 10 a.m. over at Adams Park. And one, I wouldn't say holiday, it should be, but July 17th will mark 136 years of the City of Santa Ana being selected by the voters of Orange County as the county seat. That means we're the capital of the county and not because we say so, but because all of Orange County said so. So just keep that in mind, you know, July July 17th, a little pride knowing that Santa Ana is the capital because, again, we warranted it, the voters supported that.

Phil BacerraItem 15

And so I also too want to thank Parks and Rec for the movie in the park over at Carl Thornton Park for Lilo and Stitch. I really appreciate that. And with that, good night everybody.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Thank you. Councilman Hernandez.

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 15

Thank you, Madam Mayor. I want to also thank our city staff, each of the departments that are here for today's agenda and I also want to echo the same sentiment that Mayor Pro Tem Vasquez shared. I don't support anybody coming into this chamber and using any language that is disrespectful to any of my colleagues. I don't condone name-calling, I don't condone disrespectful language. No matter what our disagreements are, we should always treat each other with dignity and respect regardless of our differences so i want to be on the record that i don't condone language

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 15

that dehumanizes my colleagues or the members of the of the public or our staff i know that people show up to this council meeting and they're very passionate and they have a right to share their first amendment but i do want to implore the public to to be respectful of this house this is a house where we do the city's business and we want to treat it with that respect i want to also uplift my first instance in the city in my history of living here of meeting a resident who was born in the city and recently celebrated her 99th birthday this resident that i have the honor

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 15

of talking about was born and raised in my district of ward 5. her name is eileen constance

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 15

MARCEL. HER MAIDEN LAST NAME IS FAULKNER. HER SON WAS A CHIEF OF A FIRE DEPARTMENT FOR PLACENTIA AND ALSO WORKED HERE IN SAN ANA OVER MANY YEARS. SHE WAS BORN JUNE 25, 1926, GRADUATED SAN ANA HIGH SCHOOL IN 1944 AND WAS RAISED ON FREEMAN AND CIVIC CENTER. I HAD THE HONOR OF ATTENDING HER BIRTHDAY PARTY AND I WANT TO THANK THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE AND SUE MILLS WITH YOUR CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE FOR PREPARING A CERTIFICATE OF RECOGNITION. BUT I JUST REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE celebrate Ms. Faulkner. 99 years

Johnathan Ryan HernandezItem 15

of not only being born in Santa Ana, but living in Santa Ana throughout her whole life. This is the first time I've ever met a person that has spent their entire life in Santa Ana. And what a joyous and honorable occasion that was. And to the Marcel and Faulkner family, God bless you. Thank you for loving Santa Ana, and we love you back. Happy birthday.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

Thank you. I don't need to say more about Republic, but I think you heard from all of us we want to hear back I am too disappointed I heard from a business owner today that their bills $500 a month but yet their their trash doesn't get picked up so I have some very grave concerns I also want to thank the city attorney at the last meeting she offered to meet with people that needed to better understand our city charter how it works who it is the what where when and how of our city government and so I believe madam city City Attorney, only two people took you up on that offer, is that correct? Two

Sonia R. CarvalhoItem 15

people responded, one never responded to our offer to actually meet and we met

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

with one. Yeah, so thank you to the the one that met, I think he's still in the room, and so thank you very much because education is so important and and we welcome that and so and so thank you. The other thing I want to share is that on August 2nd is my coffee with the mayor. I don't think we're gonna have another meeting before then either right so august 2nd i'm having coffee with the mayor at the zoo it's always wonderful because we get to go to see the butterflies they're my favorite uh what and they sell beer i'm not gonna now for people beer i'm gonna offer them coffee with the mayor and conchas okay

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

isn't intolerable you're so lucky okay you're like i'm in a good mood tonight okay Okay, so, and I'm gonna, August 2nd from 10 to 12, so at the zoo. I also wanna wish Hawk a happy birthday. I guess July 25th is gonna be your birthday, Hawk? You're 21? 21, right? Hercules, Hercules! All right. And on a serious note, you know, this is why I really take this item that we discussed tonight, our ordinance, and it's very seriously because it's really important as a body up here that we we continue

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

to do the right things and no we're not always going to agree but we are the policy makers up here and i'm very concerned mr city manager and madam city attorney we received we as in the entire council and you and the city attorney we received three serious hostile work environment complaints today against Councilman Hernandez, potentially exposing the city and the councilmember to personal damages. I would like to ask the city attorney to review these complaints and advise on the process to investigate and handle these under the city ethics code or other legal processes that may apply.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

I am especially concerned because he has been investigated before and was found to be to have behaved inappropriately what will it take to make sure he's not violating the law or employee rights and we had a great meeting I understand that but I am NOT going to stay quiet when I received we all received emails today alleging hostile work environment harassment families are afraid they're afraid for their safety for their children for their home because a particular councilman has placed on his social media calling our officers terrorists and murderers

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

and whatever it is how it is said here and you can remove it but there's always pictures that have been taken and so it really opens up the city um for serious litigation and when it becomes a civil matter i i would hope that the city is not going to pay when a lawsuit occurs because that is not our responsibility it is up to each one of us individually if we get sued civilly to hire our own attorney and to take care of the matter ourselves and so i'm very concerned that i've been here this my third year and i've never received three emails from three different

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

police officers who have filed complaints with hr and with this city and so a madam city attorney i do look to you and the city manager to guide us in this process because it is very important to the city to our constituents we'll have to if we get sued and we lose we take it out of general fund which takes away from services for our community so I just want to leave it at that and at the next meeting I would like to hear from the city attorney and the city manager

Phil BacerraItem 15

councilman Becerra two seconds I apologize madam mayor just you reminded me of something and thank you for bringing that up because we did all receive those emails regarding councilmember Hernandez um we have also received a lot of emails you know it's funny because some of the people that come up and ask for due process are the same people that come up and demand that we as a council direct our city manager or just they think maybe we can do it um to arbitrarily fire police officers and again the key word being due process there is due process i hate to put our chief on

Phil BacerraItem 15

the spot but i need to ask a question we have two officers who we're receiving numerous emails about demanding that we fire them even though we cannot do that let's be clear the council cannot do that But what I need to ask you, Chief, just because it, for clarity, for everybody to hear the same thing, are those officers being investigated for the incident?

Yes, they are.

Phil BacerraItem 15

And one thing that was put out there in the public realm was that the situation was so bad that it warranted being investigated by the Attorney General. My understanding, and please correct me where I may go wrong, my understanding is that officer-involved shootings that don't involve a weapon from the other side, those go to the Attorney General's office automatically. Is that correct?

That is correct, and that's due to Assembly Bill 1506.

Phil BacerraItem 15

So Assembly Bill 1506 mandated that this incident that these folks are sending in their form-generated emails for, that incident is being investigated by the Attorney General as we speak? That's correct. And so do we, I don't know if you know, but do you have any update that you're able to provide that tells us when this investigation will be complete?

No, the Attorney General doesn't provide us with updates. I do understand they have a large timeline. It's been my understanding in speaking with other chiefs that it's anywhere between two to three years before they reach a conclusion.

Phil BacerraItem 15

Okay, but nonetheless, this matter is being investigated right now, correct? That's correct. Okay, thank you for that clarification. Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

So, Councillor Monserrat, thank you so very much for asking that because I know it was part of the issue. But I just want to be really clear. that is why when it comes to this police oversight committee it is critical that those that sit on this oversight committee that they're fair and impartial and and that our officers do not have to feel that they already are basically gonna be fired and hang out to dry because a council member is attacking them on social media many many many many times over so with that being being said, next meeting, Mr. City Manager, Madam City Attorney, I would like to hear

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

and I'd like you to share with the Council what are the next steps and what is it that we need to do, whether it's the grand jury, whether it's a violation of the code of ethics, whatever it may be. We need to make sure this does not continue and that our officers can do their job and go through the process of whether it's an investigation by the Attorney General or an investigation by their IA, whatever the process is to hold them accountable or just to clear them, that's what I expect us to do and we do do it. And so our chief, as we said, we have a new chief who and city manager and leadership who is

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

doing a great job and thank you Madam City Attorney for being part of that and Madam Deputy City Manager and our current Associate City Man, Assistant City city managers, but this is very serious when we receive three emails from three officers. They're all suffering from anxiety and stress and claiming hostile work environment. One of them had indicated his wife and children are afraid. I take that very seriously because I know what that feels like. None of us up here should have to feel that way. Nobody. Nobody. And we've already had an incident with our Parks and Rec staff, so I would like it fully

Valerie AmezcuaItem 15

investigated and you bring back to us next city council meeting. Thank you very much. This meeting is adjourned.